Replay | EP 46 with Julie Murray, sister of Maura Murray & Advocating for Humanity in the True Crime Narrative

Today is the 20th anniversary of Maura Murray's disappearance. In July, I spoke with Julie Murray, Maura's sister and dedicated advocate for her sister and the Murray family. Think of Maura and the Murray family today.

Julie launched a podcast this month - Media Pressure - about Maura and her case.
It is recommended listening. 
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This is about Massachusetts and New England crime, regional history, about the people, places, and things that happen here.

Maura Murray is still missing. She was last seen on February 9, 2004 on a snowy back road in Haverhill, New Hampshire. Her story is a crime classic, a greatest hit in the gold catalog. I say that because of the nature of Maura’s case and the myths and mystery surrounding her disappearance, she has become like a character in a work of fiction. Her story has been “deep dived” and rehashed over and over again by the true crime coterie of content creators, podcasters, crime networks, reporters, show hosts, youtubers, tik tokies,  and those among this cabal who don’t bother to take any time to really provide much research to do her case justice. I believe we can use true crime for good. We can do better.

Julie Murray has been on the frontlines of  her sister's case, working to keep her story in the public eye. After 19 years, Maura is still missing. Never give up hope.

The Murray family's official site:
MauraMurrayMissing.org

Julie Murray on Tik Tok @mauramurraymissing

Updated show notes at https://bit.ly/3pPb1KC

Follow @crimeofthetruestkind

Transcript

Anngelle Wood: 0:00

Well, hello, my name is Anngelle Wood and this is Crime of the Truest Kind. Hey everybody, welcome to Crime of the Truest Kind. This is about Massachusetts and New England crime, about regional history, things that happen here in New England. I talk about locations, I talk about localisms, and not that I really need to convince anybody, but those of you who listen from outside of New England, oh and even those of you who listen from inside New England, I share what a great place it is to be and a great place to be from.

Anngelle Wood: 0:58

Today's show will be something a little bit different than what I normally do. It is about a missing person's case, but it is also very much about the impact on a family when a loved one is missing or murdered, what that family actually goes through. It is not pretty. It is a situation that no family wants to find themselves in, and throughout the course of this episode I will very likely share some of my own feelings about the state of the quote unquote true crime genre. This is episode 45. It's based right here in New England because Maura Murray is still missing.

Anngelle Wood: 1:55

Maura Murray, I hope that name sounds familiar. Her story is a true crime classic, a greatest hit in the collection. Now that statement does sound cold and I mean no disrespect when I say that, but it is the truth. Because of the nature of Mora's case, in the myths and the mystery surrounding her disappearance, she has become like a character in a work of fiction. Her story has been deep dived and rehashed over and over again by people, and when I say people, I mean the true crime coterie of content creators and podcasters and crime networks and writers and reporters and show hosts and YouTubers and tiktokies I just made that up and now what is the thing?

Anngelle Wood: 2:45

And those among this cabal who didn't bother to take any time to research anything that they are doing? There are a number of crime capers that fascinate the public at large the serial killer obsession Just look at your Netflix history, maybe and the other OGs of true crime Jon Benet Ramsey she's often just called Jon Benet like a cartoon mascot A case we absolutely want solved, but not at the risk of injecting ourselves into it. I guess it's too late for that Now. As much as I even dislike the thought of this person who is free, the case of Caylee Anthony goes down in the annals of crime history as one of the most outrageously effed up of the century and I have a soft spot for the Goldman family, who lost their son and brother, ron Goldman, when he was visiting Nicole Brown at her Brentwood home and we now believe likely came upon her attack and was killed as a result, this stuff affects the families in ways we don't ever want to experience.

Anngelle Wood: 3:54

Not one of us wants to volunteer for this club. Like so many other people whose unsolved case is languishing under the weight of internet fodder, maura Murray, to absolutely no fault of her own, has been dehumanized, defamed, diminished and even blamed for her own disappearance. This would put any family on the defensive and thrust them into the bright lights of a public stage they did not ask to be on that they have no experience with and, most often, little to no support navigating. It is incredibly painful for her family, this fellowship of the rabid crime consumer pulling and tearing away at the very essence of their loved one and vilifying everyone in the process. It is a very lonely place to be. Tragedy Island is what my guest will call it, and due to the rising popularity of the true crime genre, things got even more awful People looking to make a name for themselves on the backs of this family's pain.

Anngelle Wood: 4:58

I witnessed a definite sea change a few years ago, spurred by cases like that of Libby German and Abigail Williams and Delphi Indiana in 2017. Two teenagers who were killed while out on a hike in a rural area. We saw it with the disappearance of Gabby Petito in 2021. And later with the murder of four University of Idaho students Kelly Consolves, madison Mogan, zana Cronodal and Ethan Chapin. We saw as people scurry to post content, falling over themselves for hashtag hits. All families are fighting for the truth about their children and their loved one, hoping for privacy to mourn, and they never are. Given that courtesy. What they experience in the countless families like them endure is unforgivable. Now, look, I have personal experiences with crime in my own family, but I do not make a claim to be any sort of authority on having a missing or murdered loved one. Nor am I a fan of sanctimony or of virtue signaling, but I am a trained media professional and a lot of this is just cringe inducing. There is a line between harmful and helpful, and we all need to be able to recognize what that looks like.

Anngelle Wood: 6:28

Podcasts the true crime genre specifically. It's a joke unto itself when they are making sitcoms about it. We know that it has reached peak bananas, and I am a true crime fan, now a creator, and I've told you that story about my Nana and the detective magazines. I've been to crime conventions. I'm going to more this year. I've been an active consumer my entire life True crime. We didn't know what it was then. They didn't have a name for it. Other people just thought we were weird, but I believe we can use the powers of true crime for good. Mora Murray's story is important Because she's still out there.

Anngelle Wood: 7:11

She grew up in a working class family in handsome Massachusetts, a town of about 10,000 people 20 miles south of Boston, the South Shore as we call it. It is Mary Lou's coffee territory. We've talked about this and, by the way I saw Mary Lou's coffee is now being sold in the grocery store Attention Market Basket Choppers. That area of the South Shore is also cranberry territory and it is cranberry bog tour season. Go to cranberriesorg to learn more about Massachusetts cranberries and about the Cape Cod Cranberry Growers Association. I always learn something new every episode that I do of this show. And cranberry growers use migratory honey bees for pollination. A minimum of two hives per acre are utilized for cranberry pollination. I find that very interesting and there is only one state that produces more cranberries than Massachusetts. Any guesses? If you said Wisconsin, you were correct. The others are New Jersey, oregon and Washington state. Hansen has cranberry cove. That's the town beach that goes back to the 1940s, I read about this wasp infestation they had in 2021. San Wasps insects, not white Anglo-Saxon Protestants. So this wasp infestation forced the beach to close on the hottest week of the summer that year. And of course, I read up on San Wasps and posted the links on the show notes. And a crime of the truest kind for the curious like me.

Anngelle Wood: 8:50

Mora Murray was, by all accounts, not an average 21-year-old woman. She was exemplary actually. She graduated from Whitman-Hanson High School in 2000. She was captain of the cross-country team, an avid runner, ann Heiker, who was so gifted that she had the pick of colleges, and she accepted a congressional nomination from the late Senator Edward Kennedy and joined her sister Julie at West Point. That's the United States Military Academy in West Point, new York. There is no tuition there. By the way, cadets are accepted as members of the US Army. Each cadet receives an annual salary, room board, medical and dental care. It's very prestigious. All five branches of the US Military have an academy Army, navy, air Force, marines and Coast Guard. Those are the five federal academies and there are a number of private colleges as well. The US Coast Guard Academy is here in New England, in New London, Connecticut, and I just read a very interesting story that takes place in New London that I will tell you about in a future episode.

Anngelle Wood: 10:02

Mora found success at West Point. She was managing a very serious military training regiment along with a strenuous chemical engineering curriculum. She established herself on both the cross-country and track teams. She rethought a military career and made the choice to transfer out of West Point to the University of Massachusetts, amherst where she would study nursing. Now it is known that she got into some trouble at West Point. That is true. Mora stole about $5 worth of makeup. Most of us have done that. I did that. I stole a CoverGirl blush from Bradley's in the National Mall when I was like 16. The school would do some sort of official investigation, but she had chosen to leave by then. It was nothing serious enough to cause her to run away from her life and students had done far worse things than she had done and never got kicked out of school.

Anngelle Wood: 11:04

There is a great deal of false information about what led up to Mora's disappearance and we have the responsibility to get it right To the students who have been in the military to the best of our ability. I am not going to go over all of the information that has been shared over the past 19 years and I am not going to try to answer the same questions that her family has been trying to answer during that time, and I will go to the source. The Murray family created a website a few years ago as a resource about Mora MoraMurrayMissingorg. What is important to note is that when she disappeared in 2004, there was no social media, no Reddit, no, basically a detective, no YouTubers or true crime podcasters. That was both good and bad. Something called TheFacebookcom launched at the same time Mora went missing.

Anngelle Wood: 12:05

In the second part of this episode, I will talk with Julie Murray, mora's sister and a constant presence in the fight to keep Mora's name in the news and keep her memory alive, because Mora Murray is still missing. This information I took from MoraMurrayMissingorg On the morning of Monday, february 9th 2004,. Mora submitted her nursing homework electronically and reportedly emailed her professors telling them there was a death in her family and she was leaving campus for a week. But there was no death in the family. It is known that she made a call to the owner of a condo in Bartlett, new Hampshire, which is the place that was special to Mora and the Murray family.

Anngelle Wood: 12:54

The Murray spent a great deal of time in that area. I watched an interview with Fred Murray, her dad, and they talked about how they had gone there a number of times a year. It's in the White Mountain region With a number of ski resorts. I actually go snowmobiling in that area. There are many places to climb and hike waterfalls, mountains, trails and, at the risk of offering more New England tourism ideas, storyland is in the region. Alpine Slides. The beautiful Omni Mount Washington Resort may be better known as the Mount Washington Hotel, is very expensive. I've tried to book it.

Anngelle Wood: 13:34

At 3.15 that same afternoon Mora stopped at an off-campus ATM and took out $280. That's just about all the money she had in that account. She stopped at a liquor store and bought $40 worth of alcohol. It is believed that she left the UMass Amherst area around 4.30 pm and drove her 1996 Saturday north, headed to New Hampshire. Mora didn't tell anybody where she was going. She didn't tell anybody she was taking a week out of school and she definitely didn't tell anyone she was driving to Barlett, new Hampshire, in the middle of a New England winter. These are mysteries that remain with her family to this day.

Anngelle Wood: 14:19

What we know is that at 7.27 pm a woman named Faith Westman, a resident of the small town of about 5,000 people in the Connecticut River Valley called Haverland, new Hampshire, called police and stated that there had been an accident near her home and that a car was stuck in a ditch. At which point a bus driver named Butch Atwood drove by and spoke to the woman outside the car. It was Mora. He offered her help and asked if she needed him to call the police. She said no, thank you, that she had already called AAA. Now, knowing there was no cell phone reception in that area, butch Atwood drove home about 100 yards east of the accident, parked his bus and went inside to call the police. His call to 911 was placed at 7.42 pm. When asked if Mora appeared to be injured, don told her that she was not hurt. Butchette would told the police that she appeared to be shaken up and that the airbags had deployed in her car, but that he saw no blood.

Anngelle Wood: 15:24

By the time the first officer arrived on the scene at 7.46 pm, mora was gone. The officer noted that the car had been locked, there was a box of red wine behind the driver's seat, as well as stains on the ceiling and door. He also noted that there appeared to be a rag stuffed in Mora's tailpipe. We would learn later that her dad, fred, told her to do this as a way to avoid getting pulled over for excessive smoke coming out of her tailpipe. That officer asked Butchette, with the bus driver, to help him locate Mora. He suggested he drive west of the accident scene and search some of the roads in the French pond area. A state trooper also responded and also searched the road west of the accident site. Fire and EMS also responded to the scene. Ems was dismissed within minutes seeing as there was no one to treat. The eight firefighters briefly searched the accident scene before proceeding back west and returning to their fire station. As far as anyone is aware, no one searched east of the accident scene. That brief conversation with the bus driver, butchette Atwood, is the last known interaction anyone had with Mora Murray After 7.30 pm on Monday February 9th 2004,.

Anngelle Wood: 16:54

No one has seen or heard from Mora. She simply disappeared Whereabouts unknown. There's been no trace of her. There was no activity on her cell phone or on her bank accounts. Mora Murray is still missing. Now there is a comprehensive list of records including 9-1-1 transcripts, police logs, accident reports and affidavits. They can be found at the 107 degrees blog. That is a site dedicated to acquiring and evaluating evidence in Mora's disappearance. I share that because the family shares that information. It is all linked at moramurremissingorg. According to the FBI's missing persons website, mora Murray is a Caucasian female With light brown hair. She often has it pulled in a loose ponytail. She has blue-green eyes with dimples on both cheeks and a scar above. She was 5'7 and approximately 125 pounds at the time of her disappearance.

Anngelle Wood: 18:05

Mora is very pretty. It is not my intention to objectify her. I want to humanize her. The FBI missing persons website continues.

Anngelle Wood: 18:15

Monday, february 9th 2004,. At approximately 7.30 pm, a black-colored Saturn 4-door sedan vehicle belonging to 21-year-old Mora Murray traveled off Route 112 in Haverville, new Hampshire, and became stuck. The roads in that area of northern New Hampshire were snow-covered at the time. Murray was not present at the crash scene when police arrived and has not been seen nor heard from sense. Mora was last seen on surveillance footage earlier in the day at an ATM wearing a dark jacket and jeans.

Anngelle Wood: 18:49

Prior to that, murray had left the University of Massachusetts Amherst where she was studying nursing. Murray did not share with others her pending trip to New Hampshire, which was about two and a half hours away. Murray received prior education at the United States Military Academy at West Point, was an avid runner and enjoyed hiking in the White Mountains. There are a great many questions, many of which Julie Murray addresses on her TikTok channel, mora Murray Missing. For example, what does Julie think happened to Mora Foul play and searching some of her videos, mora walked away from the crash site and vanished. She was not found anywhere in the area. Nothing belonging to her was found.

Anngelle Wood: 19:41

It was February in New Hampshire, the coldest time of the year. While her car was left behind at the crash site at the tree, she locked it up and the keys to Mora's car were never found. In fact, Julie shows the keychain. It's a circular piece of leather with a mousse on it, sort of like a mousse stamp into the leather, Pretty distinctive. Never been found anywhere, not in the ground, not in the woods, not on the roadway, not in the area.

Anngelle Wood: 20:16

In the now 19 years since Mora's disappearance, her family has been vigilant, making pleas to the police. In fact, the local police declined help by the FBI in the early stages of the search for Mora, but the Murrays continue to look for new leads. Maybe you saw the billboard campaign that was up just a few months ago. So this coming February will mark 20 years since she vanished. Mora is not hiding away in another country. She didn't have facial surgery like some made for TV movie. Her family is not hiding her. There is so much misinformation that people continue to perpetuate untruths about Mora and the Murray family. Mora Murray was 21 years old when she disappeared. She was healthy. She was smart. She was a very good student. She was not a good driver. Julie says it. Mora drove too fast. She was making plans for her future to marry her boyfriend Bill into work as a nurse like her mother. Is it possible she was dealing with stress? Of course it is. Was nursing school a different kind of challenge from Mora? Maybe she was brilliant? These are all questions her family has asked Dad Fred, mom Laurie, sisters Kathleen and Julie, brothers Fred, jr and Curtis A family who has suffered greatly by speculation, exploitation, misinformation. We can do better. I am very grateful that Mora's sister, julie, agreed to have a conversation with me, not so much about Mora's ongoing case although that is very important in the focus always when it comes to Mora but the conversation is very much focused on what families go through when something like this happens. When Mora Murray went missing in 2004, it predated just about every resource families like the Murrays have today. There was no social media. There were message boards and, yes, there was internet. I'm not even sure if there was a blog spot, but the family did what they had to do. They went out and they pounded the pavement. There was their hard work. I spoke to Julie Murray, mora's older sister, who has been on the forefront of keeping Mora's case in the public eye and I'll say it again no family has made the conscious decision to put themselves in the position that families like the Murrays have been in over the last 19 years. Stick around for the end of the show. I will thank our Patreon patrons.

Anngelle Wood: 23:22

Crime of the truest kind is online everywhere, at Crime of the truest kind and now on Threads. Julie Murray, I want to welcome you to Crime of the Truest Kind. I saw you at CrimeCon in Las Vegas, you and Sarah Turni and Kelsey German, and I don't think we talk enough about what families deal with. I know that you've had many incidences. You and your family have had incidences where people have probably said things to your face about your story. Nobody knows your story better than you know your story. So let's start off there. What led you to an Engage with Empathy campaign? Where did it start for you?

Julie Murray: 24:22

Well, it's been a journey, and over the past, it's been 19 years since my little sister tomorrow went missing, vanished off the face of the earth without reason, without any answers, and initially I was kind of in the background, I was more. I was in the Army, I was focused on trying to do life, but once something like this happens, it alters the whole trajectory of your life. I was trying to do the best that I could and as the years went on and we continued to investigate and follow leads, then the true crime genre kind of took off and with that was initially very positive because that gave us widespread coverage, awareness we were reaching people that otherwise may have not have heard of these cases, and my sister in particular. But then it turned ugly because people latched on to these real life tragedies and treated them as entertainment and forgot about or never understood that there's real people behind these stories and they're not just characters. And so my family has suffered a lot in terms of exploitation, sensationalism, horrific things have been said about not only my sister, who is missing and voiceless, but also everyone that loved her and everyone in my family, and after seeing that and experiencing that I realized that I wasn't the only one.

Julie Murray: 26:13

There's many missing people and unsolved murders, as you know and it felt like the victims and the families were living on a secluded island, like a tragedy island, and people took this voyeuristic approach to it. They could do that because we were on this secluded island and never nobody really understood us and they would speculate and it allowed for them to sensationalize, exploit, talk about us as characters and that continued to happen and I was feeling it and I woke up to it, to horrific blog posts with these ridiculous, sensationalized tabloid headlines all the time. And it was just so hurtful because when you're living on this secluded tragedy island, you're so vulnerable and you're already trying to deal with everything that goes on with a missing loved one and it's hard to even put into words what that feels like. The only way that I saw people were starting to treat these cases and these family members and the people with the most at stake was when we bridged that gap, so that until you build that bridge and that bridge is empathy then people are going to just treat these stories as entertainment.

Julie Murray: 27:45

I felt that was missing in my experience and true crime, and so that's why I started the Engage with Empathy campaign, because once you bridge the gap between consuming and creating these stories without having the knowledge or understanding of what it really is like to be a family member of missing a murdered loved one, you're not going to get it and you're going to be able to rationalize your exploitation. You're going to be able to do those sensational headlines until you look me in the eye, until you talk to me, until you sit in a room with me and see the pain and anguish on my face and see the emotional and psychological toll and turmoil that I live every single day. Once I started talking to different consumers and creators and building that trust and understanding, I was like, wow, this is so much better because not only am I bringing them onto the island of the tragedy, island but now I'm able to get out of this isolation that I've put myself in and build that trust.

Julie Murray: 28:59

That was the whole reason for the Engage with Empathy campaign and it's so powerful and I think you can see a shift in the true crime space happening now, yes, as more creators reach out to and speak with the people that are most affected.

Anngelle Wood: 29:18

I definitely see that in the language. I see more and more people. There's always going to be the divide. I see more and more folks who are talking about ethics and true crime and it almost seems like a nonsensical term. Ethics and true crime because for so long we have seen this exploitative blood and guts. Your younger sister, maura, disappeared in 2004 before armchair detectives and web salutes and YouTubers and keyboard warriors. And true crime quote unquote investigators. Her story was one of the first phenomenons in this. Is that fair to say?

Julie Murray: 30:07

I would say that's fair to say, because Maura went missing the week Facebook launched.

Anngelle Wood: 30:12

Oh my gosh.

Julie Murray: 30:13

So that kind of puts it into perspective. I mean, this is before any of these apps that we have, you know, TikTok and Instagram, all of that that didn't exist when Maura disappeared. And so I would say, yeah, I mean, you've seen it played out over the past 19 years. If you just look at Maura's case alone and you can see the good that it did at the beginning, where, instead of going up to New Hampshire and knocking on doors and pinning up flyers, I could make a post and reach so many more people and get Maura's face out there and get people talking and connect with locals, connect with people from all over the world. And that is powerful, especially in unsolved and missing persons case, because you know you've got to reach those people that might know something and you're not going to be able to do that, and we weren't able to do that as efficiently until we had social media.

Anngelle Wood: 31:09

I do believe that we can use the true crime genre, as it is for the powers of good, and I realized when I saw the billboard. I'm in Massachusetts and I saw on Route 495 that there are a fair amount of people that don't really know her story at all and to be able to you know have her face in those details so prominently displayed, I really hope that it shakes something out of the tree, so to speak. How have you and your family I know there's your dad has been a very prominent figure here your siblings, how have all of you been able to deal with things that pop up in the media? I know that you have the website MoraMariMissing. You issue statements. How does it happen behind the scenes for you? Something comes up and are you united? You meet together, you talk things over and then decide what your approach is going to be. How does that work behind the scenes for a family like the Murray's?

Julie Murray: 32:22

Well for a family like mine. I'm lucky to be in such a strong knit family because we do meet and talk about everything. I call my dad every single day and we talk about other things, but we always talk about Mora and we talk about okay, what's up next? What do we need to work on? Who have you talked to?

Julie Murray: 32:44

So when things come up, we all talk, whether it be through email or on the phone, and we don't always agree. We don't always agree on the approach and how to approach things and what to engage with and what to ignore, because a lot of times it's provoking or trolling that happens especially in Mora's case and a lot of those things we're not going to waste our energy on. But when credible leads come in, we'll talk it through, lay out the different courses of actions that we think are the best way to approach it. And even if we don't agree, we always know that Mora is the North Star, so it's easy for that and to have that dialogue within my family to figure out what's the best course of action to take, because we all want the same thing.

Julie Murray: 33:41

There's a difference between the inner workings of a family like mine and then say people on the internet, because people on the internet don't always want the best. I hate to say it, but they don't always want the best for the victims and the families. They have their own agendas and want to churn out content and get attention and make a name for themselves, and it's not always victim-centered, but families like mine. We're always a victim-centered because that's the most important thing. So, yeah, I mean we have the dialogue. We disagree in a lot of things, we've butt heads, but at the end of the day, we want the best and we want answers for Mora.

Anngelle Wood: 34:24

I think of you and your dad when I listened to Kim Goldman. She's Ron Goldman's sister, who was murdered in 1994 while he was visiting Nicole Brown. She has a very close relationship with her dad, also named Fred, and he has been a rock for her family. She was very young, I think. She may have been I'm not even sure if Kim Goldman was 20 when her brother was murdered but it's been a rock for their family, even on his worst days. And I think about you too, julie, because I think that you have been even on your worst days. You're just really trying to figure out what could have happened to your sister, who you miss. It's incomprehensible.

Anngelle Wood: 35:06

Kim Goldman has a podcast called Media Circus. I would love for you to tell your story on her podcast. I think it would be phenomenal. So listen to it if you haven't yet. Just talk to a number of people who are on the side that your family is, on the impact that something like this has made on your family.

Anngelle Wood: 35:27

And listening to somebody like Kim Goldman is impactful and it puts a different perspective for the person. When you hear the things that her family went through, good God, you couldn't even imagine sometimes getting out of bed some of the things that they have gone through. But I think things like this and something geared directly toward putting these things in the faces of people who don't recognize it I'm a true crime consumer, I'm a fan, I'm a content creator, I'm a writer, all of those things I've really tried to make sure that it's about the families, it's about the person that the story is about. There's a person you know. If I write a story about someone who has been murdered, that case has been tried, the person has been convicted, they're in prison, I want to talk about that, the memory of that person or those people. How can we move forward in a way that can be positive in telling these stories? Julie?

Julie Murray: 36:35

Well, when I created the Engage with Empathy campaign, I had that in mind, and so the four pillars of the Engage with Empathy campaign follow the care principle, as I call it. Number one is to center the victim. So you have to ask yourself, both as a creator and a consumer why am I doing this? What is the intention? Am I doing this to further the case? Okay, great, let's go, I'm on board. But if you're doing it just for attention, for clicks, then I would argue that's the wrong reason. And then avoiding harmful speculation. Investigation is all over all of these cases and it's so very harmful, not only to the investigation, because when you have misinformation floating out there and, as you know, once you put something on the internet it can never be deleted it ties up resources with the investigation, with investigators who have limited time, limited funding, and it also further traumatizes the people left behind in the weeks of these tragedies. So that's why I encourage people to research responsibly, and that's the R and the care principle, because not everything you read is true and not everything that's written on the internet or in other places is accurate, and by not doing your due diligence and checking the sourcing and going back to the intention of. What is the purpose of this article or blog or book or whatever it is? You're going to perpetuate that misinformation. My sister's case is full of misinformation. People go to the Wikipedia page and it's just rehashing misinformation that was printed just so many times that people think it's fact, and so then you've got the retraumatization of the real humans, and it's just awful.

Julie Murray: 38:45

So that's something both creators have a responsibility to do, as well as consumers. You know, if you're sitting back eating popcorn listening to this murder story, you have to ask yourself why am I doing this? Are there any? Does the creator offer any advocacy, avenues or ways to help the case? Or what does the case need? What does the family need? Things like that.

Julie Murray: 39:13

And then, of course, the E and the care principle is engaging with empathy, because I didn't choose this for my life and, I would argue, nobody in my position chose this tragic path that we're on, and I also don't have a way out. I can't close my laptop and go for a walk and it just stops. I carry Mara's absence with me everywhere. The presence of her absence is in every waking thought that I have, and it has been for 19 years and it will continue to be so. Engaging the vulnerable people that are most effective is so important and I think a lot of times consumers forget that, and you know, if it feels slimy, it probably is. You know it's simple. Use the care principle and that's how you can figure out whether you're part of the problem or part of the solution.

Anngelle Wood: 40:12

This is a great deal of emotional labor for you and your family. How do you take care of you? What are some of the things that you do to take care of you?

Julie Murray: 40:23

Well, I've gotten really good about compartmentalizing because it's the only way that you can try to do life when you're in a situation like mine where the ambiguity takes away all sense of control. I have no control and we live in a world where people want control and want to problem solve and when you have a missing sister for 19 years, you lose all agency over that. So I'm good at compartmentalizing and I can go to my job and do my job and close the Mara file cabinet in my brain and then it reopen it. It's always there. One of the things that I do is I work out all the time. It's probably to the point of obsession. That's just what I do, you know.

Julie Murray: 41:15

But everybody in my family does something different and all families do different things. My dad he takes his frustration out in anger and demanding action from public officials and that's to allow himself to do life. My siblings they turn inward and they isolate. And you know I mentioned my sister Kathleen before. She picked up unhealthy coping mechanisms and turned to drugs and alcohol. And so everyone does it differently and you just have to find what works for you so that you can continue on.

Julie Murray: 41:51

The not knowing is so difficult and you. Everything is gray. You never know what is happening and you're always wondering constantly. Even in your sleep, subconsciously, you dream about horrific things, and that's something I think people don't talk about a lot, and that's why I have been more public and vulnerable and kind of sharing some of these things, because when you see me and you talk to me, you can feel it and you're less likely to call me suspicious and say that I'm helping my sister hide in a different country.

Julie Murray: 42:37

There's some ridiculous things that have been said and but if you spend any time getting to know me, you'll know none of that is true. So, yeah, I mean it's been a process, but you figure it out and you learn how to continue on, and now I spend hours a day trying to figure out ways to keep Mars story out there, and whether that be promoting different events that we're doing as a family or speaking with people, returning emails, meeting with investigators, going to New Hampshire searching, so there's always something that we have lined up to do. That's what I do.

Anngelle Wood: 43:17

To never give up hope. People miss that part of this that, oh, it's been so long. The hope is the driving force, the belief that one day you'll find out, whatever that is, never give up hope. When I talk to families who have lost a loved one or missing loved one, I like to humanize that person. What do you think Maura's life would be like today if she was with you, part of your family? She didn't go away. What kind of person would she be and what are the things that she would be doing?

Julie Murray: 43:57

Well, maura was a very caring, humble person. She was introverted, like I am, but she was studying to be a nurse and our mother was a nurse, so I'm sure she would have pursued that and become a great nurse. I've always thought, you know, because she was so smart, she probably would have went into maybe to be a nurse anesthetist something that requires a little bit more math and science background, because she was so good at that. Probably would be married, had kids I know she definitely wanted to have kids. We would be going on fun adventures like we did growing up and hiking. There's a lot of things that I've done in my life that I feel this void because I know it would be something that I would want Maura to be with me to do. Whenever I go on a hike, I think about her and just going on a run because Maura and I ran together every day and just doing everyday life things I don't have anybody to call now and just kind of talk smack to, because that was our love language, you know, just being New England kids, you know you just talk smack and that's how you show that you love them. I don't have that anymore and that's the thing that I miss the most is just being able to call her on the phone and just talk smack about whatever. She was a great runner and I've continued to run, but now I pick up CrossFit and things like that. I think she would love CrossFit because it's competitive and I miss I think about her and I doing competitions together and traveling around and throwing up weights and working out together. So I just I really miss that.

Julie Murray: 45:45

What kind of music did she like? She had an old school taste in music, so she liked all the old stuff, but she also liked some new age stuff like Coldplay and U2 and the police and new radicals. But she also liked Al Green and Zeppelin and the Eagles and you know. So she had a very wide ranging love for music. Both of my brothers are very musical and she would listen to music and go to concerts with Freddie, my older brother, and my little brother, curtis. He plays a guitar and he can sing, but he's too shy to sing, but yeah, so she definitely picked up that music, that musical side. I did not.

Anngelle Wood: 46:33

I like hearing you tell the story, because you have a smile on your face when you're talking about her. Yeah, I like that. There's a great source of pride and happiness still there for you. I think that's important to be able to keep talking about her in a way like oh yeah, remember those things because as time goes by, we forget.

Anngelle Wood: 46:52

We forget about those little things. You know the last conversations or what were the plans you were making in those last couple of days before you didn't get to talk to her again. I don't know if closure is possible for anybody in these instances. I really value being able to spend this time with you and have this conversation, because it is important in that true crime can be used for good. I just think we need to keep hammering that into the heads of people who just think it's for laughs and for silly t-shirts. So thank you for really shining a light where it's so needed.

Anngelle Wood: 47:35

But somebody that has been involved in this for the length of time that you and your family have, it's so invaluable to be able to have this messaging. So thank you for that. I know that there are some days you just don't want to have to deal with this and thank you for sticking to it. It's obviously an honor of your sister, who you love very much. So love to all of you. I will see you at the True Crime Festival in August. I know you're the keynote speaker and you have a great message to share, so maybe we'll get to spend some time together there, your TikTok channel folks. If you have any questions that you want answered from Julie, it's all there. I mean you address just about every single question you have ever been asked about Morris Case.

Julie Murray: 48:28

Yeah, I try to, and it goes back to that bridge. You know I talk about how important empathy is and I want to allow people to approach me and ask questions and I also want to be able to meet them halfway and for them to get to know me. And so TikTok has been great because there's no control of who you're going to reach and the reach has been tremendous and I'm reaching people from all over the world and I'm able to dispel some of the misinformation. I'm able to share some of my grief journey. I'm able to show people some of my vulnerability and people have responded to it and they see me for the real human that I am. And I think that's super important because it's different when I write a blog or I do a tweet. There's a difference between that and people seeing me being able to look into my eyes when I'm talking about how painful the unresolved loss and the ambiguity is, and I think it's resonating with a whole new group of people and it's been amazing.

Anngelle Wood: 49:43

It's unimaginable. I mean, we can say we're sorry and oh, I can't imagine when it's like that's not helpful for you. You just want people to understand where you're coming from.

Julie Murray: 49:55

Yeah, I think. I think it's important to distinguish between sympathy and empathy, because empathy is what connects us as humans, it's what it's how we establish an understanding, a better understanding, and it cuts out the you know, that voyeuristic side where you're kind of just peering in on the worst day and the worst tragedy of my life. You're right, people like me, we don't want a pity party. We don't want I'm sorry, we don't want you to fix our problem. We just want you to listen, we want you to understand. I want to feel a connection because, like I said a lot of times, people in my position isolate and cut themselves off from everything because it's just too painful, and so it's been cathartic in that way that I'm able to connect with other people to help me get through difficult times, as well as other people getting a better understanding, I think anything is possible.

Anngelle Wood: 50:54

All of the things that you've said about your own dealings with Morris disappearance it's all of these things false information and missed opportunities. It's not an episode of CSI. It's none of those TV episodes where everything's solved in 35 minutes plus commercials.

Julie Murray: 51:11

Yeah, it happens all the time. I mean, I all open YouTube and there'll be 15 different rehashing of Morris case by people that didn't have the courtesy to even reach out to me and they're just rehashing all the same crap. That's all false and sensationalized. This is re-traumatizing me, and then I go into the comments, which is a bad idea. But then you know the family, that sister of hers. She just wants attention. Are you freaking, kidding?

Anngelle Wood: 51:42

me. Nobody wants to be a part of that club. There's nobody on earth that wants to join that club willingly Absolutely not. That's why I don't really spend a lot of time on Reddit.

Anngelle Wood: 51:52

Don't go there it's a cesspool, just conjecture and rumor and innuendo, and I don't operate like that. I just don't. Yeah, well, I hope that we can continue our online conversation. I really do value everything that you're doing and I want to make sure that I'm part of the good side of it. You know, just echoing your message is really my intention. I went to CrimeCon last year. It was a gift that was eye-opening, but there were definitely some instances that were really enjoyable and really enlightening, like you were panel with Sarah and Kelsey. You know when I like DateLine, I'm a DateLine fan, so we'll see them and I'll see you in Austin at the probably the hottest time we can be there.

Julie Murray: 52:36

I know, I know, yeah, I will, and I'll keep you updated. I don't know what your schedule is, but if you can make it up to Conkert when we march, that would be great.

Anngelle Wood: 52:47

Yeah, I would love to. I'll keep an eye on news that you've got coming out and see how I might be able to be helpful in that.

Julie Murray: 52:54

I appreciate you and I'm glad that you're doing it the way you're doing it.

Anngelle Wood: 52:58

Yeah, I hope that you know we can continue to just hammer that message, because that's what I want to do.

Julie Murray: 53:04

Yeah, okay. Well, I will see you in Austin, if not before.

Anngelle Wood: 53:09

All right, Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Julie Murray. For many, many years Julie has put herself out there because the family wants to know. The family does not have answers. I wanted to talk to Julie about some questions I had about other cases in addition to Morris case, because Julie Murray has been a great advocate, not only for her own sister and her own family but other people's families. So one of the things Julie had mentioned is that folks in New Hampshire are planning some sort of advocacy rally. I don't have any more information to share but as soon as I get it I will share it with all of you to see if some of you might want to be involved. Moramurremissingorg is the official website Moramurremissing. On TikTok you can go and watch Julie's videos. She tells you a lot of things about Morris case.

Anngelle Wood: 54:24

We will be at True Crime podcast festival at the end of August in Austin, Texas. Hot as hell, but we will be there Definitely inside the air conditioned hotel in Austin. Thank you to our superstar patrons Heather B, Rhiannon, Lisa McColgan, superstars, my honorary executive producers, my APs wikicle supporters, Rebecca Dominique, Devil Dog and brand new Haymark. Thank you so much. Gotta say hey to Total Jam Patty in New Hampshire. There's a few folks who were given the dog bone. Thank you, Paula, John, Barbara, that's what I call the tip jar, because she will be supplying my dogs with bones.

Anngelle Wood: 55:23

Crime of the truest kind, available everywhere, Everywhere you listen crimeofthetrueuskindcom. Follow at CrimeoftheTruestKinds on all the things Facebook, Instagram. The show goes up on YouTube. It's also on Twitter TikTok threads. I chuckle when I say that because it's brand new. Brand new and about 30 million people already signed up for it. It is an alternative to Twitter. To put that in context, the next time I speak to you, my new little doggy is going to be here. Yeah, I just found out tonight, as I was trying to get this show out, that's a baby dog became available for adoption. I will tell you all about it on the internet. Follow CrimeoftheTruestKinds. Thank you so much to Julie, Mary and Maura. Mari is still missing. Please share her information. Thank you for listening. Bye, everybody, Bye and lock your goddamn doors. Bye.