EP 64 | What Happened at 34 Fairview Rd In Canton? John O'Keefe Murder Trial Week Two Review with Dubs the True Crime Bloodhound

A few things to remember: John O’Keefe is dead. His family hasn’t been able to properly mourn (nor has Karen Read) and this is a horrible place for a family to be.
There are kids involved. John O’Keefe was the guardian and main caregiver to his niece and nephew that in no way asked for or deserved to be at the center of this nightmare. 

There is a lot of scrutiny surrounding the John O'Keefe murder trial.

Karen Read is not a stupid woman. She's a member of the faculty at Bentley, in their Finance Dept  for the last 16 years. She works (or worked) for Fidelity Investments in Equity Research and was a Financial Analyst. There has been so much pre-trial publicity that it may be impossible for her to be looked at fairly. This case is simply bananas.

The more I learn about it, the more questions I have, beginning with What the hell happened at 34 Fairview in Canton in the early hours of January 29, 2022?

We know eastern Massachusetts was in the grips of a major snowstorm. Turns out, it was a blizzard. Boston got 23.5 inches of snow that Saturday at Logan Airport, making January 29, 2022 the second largest January storm every recorded in the city. The seventh biggest snowstorm of all time in Boston's recorded history.
The temperature dropped to 21 degrees. This had to have hampered the investigation. There were the red solo cups, the grocery bag, that leaf blower - very Tarantino. 

I watched some of the testimony this week and I checked in with Dubs, the True Crime Bloodhound, to help me out with this week’s big happenings.
---
Justice for Beth Brodie | Event link
Her killer is seeking parole, hearing is Thurs May 16 at the Massachusetts Parole Offices in Natick. Write a letter. Stand with us.
Visit JusticeforBethBrodie.com - Write the parole board and tell them No Parole for Richard Baldwin, W56202.

Justice for Janet Downing. Her killer is seeking parole on Tues 6/25

Friday, May 17 is Children's Advocacy Day at the State House from 11am-1pm.
Join us at Great Hall | Event Link

Thanks to Dubs of True Crime Bloodhound |

Chapters

• 0:00 Crime Advocacy Updates and Trial Review
• 16:48 Witness Testimony and Police Calls
• 29:07 Witness Testimony in Courtroom Drama
• 40:11 Investigation of John O'Keefe's Case
• 47:33 Evidence Collection and Police Procedures
• 1:01:09 Police Officer's Death Investigation Discussed

Transcript

Anngelle Wood: 0:00

Well, hello, my name is Anngelle Wood and this is Crime of the Truest Kind. Much going on here in Crime of the Truest Kind land now that the umble is over, that festival that took up lots of my time and attention. Now that that is over, I can refocus my efforts and energy into doing more advocacy work. And what that's going to look like next week very busy. May 16th, the Beth Brodie Justice for Beth Brodie group will be meeting outside of the Massachusetts Parole Board in Natick, Massachusetts, because the boy, now man, who murdered Beth Brodie is seeking parole and I will be there to support the family and I do believe, if it all goes the way we think it may, that I will be in attendance at the hearing. I have never done this, so I will most definitely share with you my experience. You are welcome to come and stand outside. I will share the information and you can get in touch.

Anngelle Wood: 1:54

The following day, Friday, May 17th, it is the annual Children's Advocacy Day. It is something started many years ago by the family of Molly Bish after she went missing. Molly Bish was recovered three years almost three years after her disappearance, and Molly's murder remains unsolved. The annual Children's Advocacy Day is Friday, May 17th at the State House in downtown Boston. Keynote speaker is Julie Murray, sister of Maura Murray, and they're from Hanson. The public is invited to attend. It is in Great Hall starting at 11 am. All of that information, of course, will be posted at Crime of the Truest Kind, on all the socials at Crime of the Truest Kind and posted in the show notes everywhere.

Anngelle Wood: 2:51

That in Canton and the death of John O'Keefe Officer. John O'Keefe we talked about it on last week's show and Dubs, the true crime bloodhound, is back with me today to give an update about this past week Testimony bombshells. There are a couple of things that came up during the trial. I readily admit that I am, or have not been, fully focused on the John O'Keefe case or the John O'Keefe trial Because, let's remember, somebody is dead. He needs justice and while I take no stance on Karen Reed's guilt or innocence, I will say this If Karen Reed is innocent of what she's being accused of, she deserves justice too. Innocence of what she's being accused of, she deserves justice too. I shut down all of the noise surrounding this case because it is an absolute frenzied circus and I'm doing my best to collect the facts as they roll out and I will continue to do that, and Dubs and I will continue to talk about it.

Anngelle Wood: 4:23

There's a lot going on here and I'm trying to understand it, but I'm not completely sure that it can be understood. Let's see how it goes. It's week two. We have a long way to go in the John O'Keefe murder trial. I do realize at one point in this conversation with Dubs I call my former colleague Sue O'Connell. I call her Sue O'Donnell, Sorry, Sue. Sue is with NBC Channel 10, which is also NECN, New England Cable News. I'm confused, but I was watching her Twitter feed and it's interesting.

Anngelle Wood: 5:02

Also interesting, I did watch the sentencing of Adam Montgomery, father of murdered child Harmony Montgomery, who is still missing. He got 45 years to life for second degree murder for killing Harmony and he still hasn't told us where she is. Murder for killing Harmony and he still hasn't told us where she is. Life on the inside will not be good for him. He strikes me as the kind of guy that's going to find trouble and trouble's going to find him. This is episode 64. What the hell happens at 34 Fairview in Canton, Massachusetts? At 34 Fairview in Canton, Massachusetts? The John O'Keefe Murder Trial Week 2 Review with Dubs, the true crime bloodhound, and you can listen to Dubs' podcast. It's called the True Crime Bloodhound. I only watched a little bit of the trial and I was bored out of my mind. Oh my God, it was so boring. I don't mean to be disrespectful, because the truth of the matter is John O'Keefe is dead. John O'Keefe is dead.

Dubs: 6:30

This whole case became an absolute goddamn circus, but it's still really boring to watch. Yeah, I don't have disrespect. I think it's hard to sit and listen to all of that going on and on. Who, if anyone was driving who, if anyone, did you talk to what, if anything, you know? Who, if anyone was driving who, if anyone, did you talk to? What, if anything, did you talk about?

Anngelle Wood: 6:51

It's repetitive and dry and I know that hopefully they're trying to get at something, but it's taken a while and I know we've got a long way to go. This is only week two and we anticipate many, many more weeks ahead. So, dubs, if you would fill me in on the John O'Keefe slash, karen Reed trial, as you have witnessed to date, All right.

Dubs: 7:22

Well, do you want to go from where we left off last week?

Anngelle Wood: 7:26

All right. Well, do you want to go from where we left off last week? Sure, when did we leave off? Last week we talked about her outfits.

Dubs: 7:44

Which a woman has no chance. A woman has no chance, by the way, of getting a fair trial if she dresses a certain way or makes facial expressions, I mean and that's another conversation in and of itself, don't you think? I?

Anngelle Wood: 7:50

don't really still to this day, even though we've talked about this, I don't have an opinion of her guilt or innocence.

Dubs: 7:57

I think that's a good place to be coming at this from, honestly, because this is the arena, this is the show. You're not going to get a more full, robust picture of what happened and who was there when it did, unless you were watching in this format, seeing it in trial, where everything that can be held against her will be held against her and everything that can be put up against the Commonwealth's case will be held against her and everything that can be um put up against the commonwealth's case will be presented. This is the time to really start paying attention. I think so.

Anngelle Wood: 8:32

Good on you I'm really looking forward to the the hard evidence, and when I say hard evidence, I'm really looking forward to when the testimony moves toward the scientific discovery. I don't know if that's even the proper legal terminology, but when the medical examiner, when the experts come and actually walk us through the condition of John O'Keefe, because I feel like that will. I mean, let's face it, some people feel the way they feel and that's the way they're always going to feel, regardless of whatever information is presented during this trial.

Dubs: 9:12

I've seen a lot of it.

Anngelle Wood: 9:14

People are like she didn't do anything. Other people are like, oh yeah, she did it and she ran him over and left him there and then pretended she forgot. And left them there and then pretended she forgot. I'm keeping a very open mind. I want to see the forensic, medical, scientific stuff, but they're walking us through the night of and when everybody went to the restaurant.

Dubs: 9:41

It's unfortunately incredibly dry and repetitive testimony at this point. But I think, from where I sit anyway, that it is a strategic move by Lally. I think that he is trying to lay irrefutable groundwork on who was where and when that night so that nobody could impeach that by impeaching one witness or the testimony of one witness later. You know he can't, somebody else can't come along and impeach the testimony of, say, the bartender later on and then throw everything away that has come before it. You know, by consequence, I think this is a smart move. That way, no matter what the credibility of each witness looks like, he has that groundwork set and he knows who was where and when. And now everyone watching knows who was where and when.

Dubs: 10:46

So unfortunately, you know as a bystander, as somebody who's watching this day after day, hour after hour, of how many high top tables were there at the waterfall bar and which high top table were you sitting at at the high at the waterfall bar, like that it's. It's tedious as hell and unfortunately it's the reality of watching something um a murder trial like this, with so much hearsay, so much he said this, she said that so little hard, concrete, tangible evidence that you have to go off of you. You know what you have, and what you have is who was where and when. So unfortunately it's. It is like this it's tedious and it's detailed and it's repetitive, but you know, when we, weeks from now, when we see the full picture at the very end, we're going to, we're gonna go well, yeah, of course, this makes total sense.

Anngelle Wood: 11:46

Now, right I mean it really does make sense because they want to get the attitudes and the frame of mind of everybody who was present. They want a play-by-play of how everyone was interacting and they've spoken a lot about Karen Reed and John O'Keefe and their how they were behaving with each other, which was very friendly and loving.

Dubs: 12:16

Yes, and I think that's very, very important, no matter which side of this you're sitting on.

Dubs: 12:22

No matter which side of this you're sitting on, because you know if you're on the Karen is innocent side, this goes to show, well, there was no issue between the two of them and there was no problems and everyone was happy and having a good time.

Dubs: 12:36

But if you're sitting on the other side of it, you have to wonder where is he going with this?

Dubs: 12:41

Because if you're trying to prove that this woman got drunk and ragey and ran him over, show me the rage, show me the incident that tips everything from one thing to another, because I think that is going to go towards her propensity, her alleged propensity for flying off the handle or going zero to 60 very, very quickly, assuming the worst and getting insanely jealous off of virtually no provocation. So, from what I understand, there was a discussion in the car with regard to where the house is in relation to the house of a woman that John had had a prior affair with, and the mention of this woman who he had a prior affair with was allegedly what set off this argument. So if that is the case, then Lally has to show precedent for her for lack of a better term her shit yeah, and going completely nuts. But if he can show that she has a habit or you know any kind of routine of doing that, I think that that's what this evidence is going to show.

Anngelle Wood: 14:02

And they did speak quite a bit through the course of these several days. So you and I are talking on Thursday after 5 pm just to sort of set the time and place to where the information that we have to date, certainly by the time some of you listen to this, more information would be made available.

Anngelle Wood: 14:25

Throughout the course of this week, testimony has been largely about interactions, friendships, canton residents hanging out, you know their children playing sports, etc. What have I know that Albert's were on the stand today Chris Albert and his wife, chris and Julie. Yeah, what did they say specifically about their relationship with John Keefe and Karen Reed at this point, because John Keefe and Karen Reed were a couple for so long.

Dubs: 15:01

Right.

Dubs: 15:02

So that was. That was interesting. I know a lot.

Dubs: 15:06

Chris has been a very big topic of conversation I guess is the kind way to put it over the past few months with regard to his reactions to people's, you know, running their mouths about him or his wife or his son. Most importantly, and I think you know any one of us with kids would react that way If our child was accused of murdering somebody, we would all come to their defense, no matter what. So, with all of that said, you kind of expect him going up on the stand, this explosive line of questioning with regard to you know what his relationship with john was like and what, um, you know what went on between john and karen and what happened that night, what was said, everything like that. And he got up on the stand and came across very personable. When lally was questioning him, he, he sort of I, you could tell he got the gist of where the questioning was going, but still he's sitting there like really, really, he just sort of had this like okay, you know, I, yes, there are tables there. Yeah, Okay, that's you know.

Dubs: 16:23

I went to the waterfall and then I went home and I walked home. And that was an interesting thing because originally originally and I don't even know where it came from because I didn't have time to look it up with this morning of testimony butting up against the sentencing for Adam Montgomery, it just sort of was a full day of watching court while trying to work. So I didn't get a chance to look into it. But I believe, according to the first statements that were given to the police about this, chris and Julie had said they or at least Chris said he had gone to 34 Fairview post the waterfall, and now we're hearing that he walked home, which is obviously a very different statement than getting in the car and going over to 34 fairview. So I'm interested to see how that's reconciled, if it is but there was no cross at that point oh, the cross was brutal it was they had pointed out all of those discrepancies so they didn't.

Dubs: 17:28

They didn't point out anything with regard to his, his prior statements to the police, which I thought was a huge missed opportunity. But vianetti was the one who cross-examined him and he was, you know, just hammering him on minutiae like how long of a walk is it from your business to CF McCarthy's? They're next door, it's not that far. And how long does it take you to walk to the waterfall? How long does it take you to walk home? And they were getting both of them were getting tripped up by this line of questioning because Yannetti was overcomplicating the question. So, chris Albert, sitting on the stand, like I don't know what you're asking me, but I don't know what you're saying.

Anngelle Wood: 18:08

Was he trying to confuse?

Dubs: 18:10

him I think he was, but Chris, to his credit and like, like I said before, I don't know this guy, I don't know any of these people, but to his credit, he was pretty.

Dubs: 18:20

He was not given an inch, not one inch, on anything that Yannetti wanted him to say. I could feel that he wanted him to say well, you know, I saw some tension, I saw this, I saw that, and there was a fun moment where Yannetti asked him what time he had gotten home and he said it was two years ago. I really don't remember, but I think it was somewhere around a little past 12, 12, 10, maybe. And Yannetti, like in this big aha moment, shows the video from the waterfall of Chris Albert leaving at 12, 13. And he's like, so this can't be true. And he's like, yeah, I guess not, it's five minutes. Like, what do you want? It's not going to change the course of things, but I think the strategy by the defense here is, when they can't get an inch, to use anything they can to try and discredit these state witnesses and it's all they have for people who aren't testifying to.

Anngelle Wood: 19:21

like, yeah, I saw him get murdered Exactly Because they don't have any of the you know proverbial smoking gun. In this case, it's all just they're presuming that the only way he could have ended up passed out in the snow was because he was hit by Karen Reid.

Dubs: 19:42

Yeah, Actually, earlier in the week there was some interesting testimony by some police officers. I believe it was yesterday. They had some Officer Ray on the stand and when he was being questioned they were showing the dash cam video from his cruiser the cruiser that he and another policeman took to One Meadows Ave to do a wellness check on the kids.

Anngelle Wood: 20:11

That's right, and the car was parked there, yeah.

Dubs: 20:14

Yeah, the car's parked there. So this off off goes another debate on whether the blank spot you see where her taillight was is snow or if it's a missing taillight. Like, I'll admit fully that I was screenshotting the video at its clearest moments, trying to enhance it and see what I could see, and it just it could go either way. It's just so hard to tell, it's so hard, you and everybody.

Anngelle Wood: 20:44

You in the world who's watching this clearly tried to do that as well. I would have done it.

Dubs: 20:50

Yep. And then as far as other sort of bombshells, I guess you can say, when they had Sean Good up on the stand earlier this week, they did play the original tape of Jen McCabe's 911 call as well, as Carrie Roberts called to the police to check if they had picked up John for anything drunken, disorderly or anything. So Carrie had called earlier after she had heard from Karen, to make sure that he didn't. He's not in the drunk tank, you know, because that would be a simple, easy explanation. And if he was out drinking with people like logic stands to reason that that's a place he could end up. Um, so she called in a wellness check and there's nothing really remarkable about her call. But then they played Jen McCabe's call and from what I could hear because again it's, you're watching a stream of someone taping what is on the screen which is a replication of a 911 call. So it is like four levels of distorted. But from what I could understand, first off she calls, she gets the normal dispatch and says I'm calling regarding a man passed out in the snow and as somebody who has called 911 before, I know and maybe Jen knows and maybe she doesn't maybe I'm giving her too much credit. But I know that when you call 911, you give them a quick summary of why you're calling so that they can give you to the appropriate people. Anything that you say to the original dispatch on 9111, you're going to have to repeat it because you're going to get the more local dispatch or the the ambulance dispatcher or police or fire. So you know you're going to have to repeat it.

Dubs: 22:50

Maybe she was aware of that, having two cops in the family, so she just went with this guy's passed out in the snow, 34 Fairview Road, canton, and he goes okay, I'm going to transfer you. He transfers her. She says it again, they transfer again or get an additional person on the phone. I couldn't really tell what was going on there, but after the second one she gives full details and people have been saying for months she's not giving his name, she's not saying he's a cop or anything like that. She says his name is John O'Keefe. He is 46 years old. So she did identify who he was and she did identify the house as the Albert residence as well. And another little piece of information that I wasn't aware of and I don't think anybody was until we heard this is that when they found him. He was face down.

Anngelle Wood: 23:46

Yes, I read that. I read that in one of the things that I went through today. How the hell did you know that and how was that received?

Dubs: 23:55

This is oh, you flipped him over. Yeah, we just flipped them over. He's like are you doing CPR? She's like they're trying to Because I mean I'm sure while she's on the phone with 911, she's not going to be like, yeah, they're trained professionals. Let's find out, when was your CPR certification? Like they're trying to save some guy's life. She says they're trying. You know they may not be professionals, they may not be life. She says they're trying. You know they may not be professionals, they may not be certified, but they're trying so enough on tv to be able to try to.

Dubs: 24:27

You know I mean, if you've ever seen the office, you know the whole stay in the light thing.

Anngelle Wood: 24:35

Now this introduces a whole bunch more questions for all of us who were even minimally watching this case to understand that he was lying, that john o'keefe was lying on his back with a pretty substantial head injury to the back of his head. But now we learned in testimony, or at least through this call right through the call yeah, through the call that they had to flip him over because he was laying on his stomach yep, that's.

Dubs: 25:20

That's a big piece of information to me that changes the game, because a lot of my concern, at least initially, with him having the head wound of the size and severity that he did. Why are we not seeing a big pool of blood underneath him when they move his body? And that's why because he was face down, because the head wound was left to bleed and freeze and clot fully exposed to the air.

Anngelle Wood: 25:49

Now, I'm even more intrigued with what the medical examiner will have to share with us when that time comes.

Dubs: 25:55

So, so, interested Because we've heard competing accounts again from the EMS personnel as to whether the wounds on his arm or on the upper arm, or the forearm or the elbow, or whether his clothes were shredded, whether he was wearing a jacket. Even and I think we've pretty much put the jacket thing to bed through much more testimony and surveillance video of where John and Karen spent their last hours of that night out and about with friends you don't see him in a jacket.

Anngelle Wood: 26:30

No, and so many New Englanders still wear shorts in the wintertime.

Dubs: 26:35

Oh, shorts and snow boots or shorts and a big puffy parka jacket. You see it.

Anngelle Wood: 26:41

Or a hoodie, usually a pants school pants hoodie. Or if you're Bill Belichick, you cut the arms Part of the hoodie, Now that you bring that up. I did hear, I did hear a bit about that and I knew that we would talk about it this afternoon and I wanted to try to piece all that together, which will become much more detailed when we get to the stage of with the coroner medical examiner. He was still technically alive when they found him in the snow.

Anngelle Wood: 27:15

They rushed him to the hospital where he subsequently passed away like eight o'clock in the morning, right. So there wasn't any medical examiner on site. They just have to go by the information that the EMTs and law enforcement give to them from when they reported to the scene.

Dubs: 27:32

Yes, and they the EMS. They made it pretty clear during their testimony I think it was either two or three of them were saying that they considered John viable for resuscitation, so they were continuing life-saving efforts. And I don't know how much you know about hypothermia, but given that he was hypothermic when they found him, they do need to bring his body temperature back up to normal before they can pronounce him dead. So I think that was another reason for the delay until eight or almost eight in the morning.

Anngelle Wood: 28:14

Correct me if I misunderstood this, but there was a period of testimony where we learned I guess publicly we learned that when Karen Reid found John O'Keefe didn't she try to warm him herself?

Dubs: 28:34

Yeah, yeah, she was on top of his body.

Anngelle Wood: 28:39

With her bare skin on his bare skin, which is kind of what we're taught, right?

Dubs: 28:43

yeah, those are the things that you're taught, like if you're camping, strip down and and keep each other warm with body temperature, with your body heat. Yeah, so I would think it would just be a primal, almost primal instinct, like if I get close, maybe I can help warm him up, but I mean, from all accounts, he was cold to the touch. Like you have to know, at a certain point it's probably futile, but there's a lot of shock and dismay and I think, regardless of whether she did this or not, she either doesn't remember or didn't do it on purpose, and this could have been complete, genuine shock, if she is in fact guilty of this.

Anngelle Wood: 29:27

Well, I got to tell you, if I saw that, if I was witness to that, to a partner discovering their partner possibly deceased in the snow, and their reaction is to try to warn them like that.

Anngelle Wood: 29:40

That's heartbreaking it is the thought of of that, even this frenzied bananas case that we're in the middle of. That's just heartbreaking to think that she saw him in the snow and panic and's that's a traumatic situation. So I don't know, I'm not on the guilty or not guilty side, right down the middle watching it as it comes. That is massive trauma. So not a psychiatrist surprise. I would guess that that kind of trauma may affect your memory.

Dubs: 30:19

Yeah, I would think so, and what?

Anngelle Wood: 30:20

you remember about those events and how you feel and how you reacted and everything about that morning I mean it was end of January in Massachusetts it's freezing. Tiles of snow were falling. It was freezing out.

Dubs: 30:36

Wind too was very high.

Anngelle Wood: 30:38

January is like the worst month of the year in New England. It's the worst. It is like the last month when we feel like we're all in a black hole, like this is over soon. Right, that was 2022. That was a particularly awful winter.

Dubs: 30:53

I remember that exactly. I had kittens that were born in my house that day. It's crazy, actually, because I was awake and sitting with my cat when all of this went down, you know, when they left the bar, and then early early in the morning when his body was discovered. I was awake. Through all that. I try to think back all the time, like how cold was it? But my house is not a good barometer for what it was like down there either. I mean, I live up in no man's land. As you know, it's always an average of at least 10 degrees colder up here in the winter, so but I do remember it being horrendous out that weekend because we lost power twice, like. So I do remember that it was. It was a terrible night weather-wise. I couldn't imagine being out in it.

Anngelle Wood: 31:45

That compounded everything about this case too. If this was just a summer night, or even a night with mild temperatures, I think it would have been very different there's just so much extraneous things around that situation, right? Yes, it was traumatic. Yes, a man was found almost almost deceased, survived, you know, technically a short time and then died in the hospital.

Dubs: 32:13

If that was a summer night, well I know we certainly wouldn't be having the evidentiary problems that we're having right now.

Anngelle Wood: 32:21

I mean things would be much less ambiguous. Yeah, I think that we wouldn't be dealing with. Oh, maybe a piece of the taillight was covered in snow. You would have seen very clearly in that dash cam footage when they went to John O'Keefe's house to do the wellness check on the children. It would have been very obvious what the back of the car looked like. Right, you wouldn't be thinking, oh, was it snow, Is it broken? What is it?

Dubs: 32:47

Yeah, Because I mean, if you look at it through the lens of, it was definitely broken, that's what you're going to see. But if you look at it through the lens of like, oh, there's snow covering the red, can't you see the red tint? You're going to see it. So I've seen both just staring at it, for you know, a few minutes to a half an hour at a time, like you can see it either way, you can go either way. So it bolsters both sides, I think.

Anngelle Wood: 33:15

As far as the outside the courtroom arguments go, I've been watching a bit of the play by play on my feeds, you know. Certainly there's a lot of media trying to fight their way into the courtroom because of course it's very small and people are standing in line. And people are in line at like the middle of the night to get their spot yep, that's bananas. I'm following, uh, a former colleague of mine, sue o'donnell. We work together at wfnx. She now works for mbc 10 and sue has been, I still say, tweeting, because fuck that other guy tweeting, sort of the goings on.

Dubs: 33:59

Oh, she doing the live.

Anngelle Wood: 34:04

And it's just, it's just really silly the behaviors around all of this. You know sort of the accusations that fly around between different sides and you know, like I said early on, it's very polarizing. It has this sort, and you know, like I said early on, it's very polarizing. It has this sort of, you know, political feel.

Dubs: 34:24

Yeah a little bit. It has gotten incredibly, incredibly divisive and it's, just as far as I'm concerned, once the witness list takes a turn towards civilian, hard rather than expert or EMS or police, I think that it's going to be more brutal before it gets easier to take. I don't know how closely you've been following socials and you know people duking it out on the internet, but one of the witnesses recently uh, one of the ems personnel, her name is katie mclaughlin. She knows caitlin albert but is not friends with caitlin albert and the. The socials just blew up. I mean, the next day, yannetti shows up to court with all these pictures that people found on social media of her and Caitlin Albert and it's just, it's terrible to like getting actually involved first of all in a case and referred to by a defense attorney during court.

Anngelle Wood: 35:45

I've never seen that admissible. Though I can legitimately find a photograph, if one exists, or I can doctor a photograph, can that stuff hold up in court? I mean, is that stuff hold up in court? I mean, is that stuff admissible it?

Dubs: 35:58

depends on when it's brought in, because for for the purposes I think that David Yannetti was trying to get them in vis-a-vis, like impeaching Katie McLaughlin or potentially recalling her for the purposes of impeaching her based on her clear, albeit not so clear, relationship with Caitlin Albert. I think Beth made the right decision by saying like no, you can get this from the other witness. So I'm interested to see if he's actually allowed to pull this up. I'm not positive if he would be. There's nothing really that in my wheelhouse that I know of fully that says like no, absolutely not, or yes, because they can admit new exhibits, but it would depend on whether there's an objection, whether the judge has an issue with it. So it would be a long sidebar probably if you wanted to try and get them in.

Anngelle Wood: 36:56

I can't imagine that they would even allow any of this stuff to even be seen.

Dubs: 37:02

No, yeah, the other morning, when Yannetti got up and said this stuff, it was before the jury was brought in.

Anngelle Wood: 37:09

It's just fascinating that stuff is fascinating that people are sending things in to the defense to be like, look, look, look, look look.

Dubs: 37:17

Yeah, and I've never known a defense attorney to go. Oh well, let's check Facebook and see what people have posted in the last 10 hours since this person testified.

Anngelle Wood: 37:29

Like that's Well, I imagine they probably have people on their team to do that, but not actually say it out loud. I'm sure that even when you're applying for a job, people look at your feeds right, so you want to make sure you're not doing anything too outlandish Make sure you get your pants on. It is fascinating and I'm sure this has happened in other cases. We're just not so super focused on it. We're hyper focused on everything that's going on with this one, I think that this is going to be under a microscope too.

Dubs: 38:01

Until the minute the gavel comes down, post verdict Unbelievable and no matter what, there will be appeals.

Anngelle Wood: 38:09

Most definitely. What do you see happening? So more high top restaurant conversation. Well, let's see, they had a bartender and they're like he's a good tipper and they're like I don't know.

Dubs: 38:25

Yeah, they had that one bartender who's just like I'm not sure, why am I?

Dubs: 38:28

here. He's a guy that came in and had beers. Like I don't know him. I've seen him, that's it. I think tomorrow they're going to chris albert's wife finish up, so julie albert will finish. I'm betting that they save jen mccabe for later in this. I think that they'll continue bringing up people who are at the bar, but as far as like the direct friend group, I think that we're down to the group that they were there with. I mean, I can't remember the guy's name, everyone just calls them the Greek couple Catechethes. Oh, yes, I saw.

Anngelle Wood: 39:12

Both of them I saw. I saw him and then his. I saw his wife give a bit of testimony too.

Dubs: 39:19

So those two were sort of they were there with this group but sort of on the outskirts, and now we're going more towards the core group of people that were there. If Lally's doing what I think he's doing, I think he'll start going more from the periphery of that group closer in, but he will save jim mccabe for her testimony as to after the fact. I think I think she'll be a headline witness for this and I think she'll be on the stand for multiple days too.

Dubs: 39:52

She's gonna be really nervous oh, it'd be shitting bricks if I was her.

Anngelle Wood: 39:57

I cannot imagine what it feels like. I don't ever want to know. No, thanks, no way. That would make sense that you know the process of elimination right. They cast this real wide net with everybody that was around. And okay, we heard from you. We heard about how many seats were at the high top. And okay, we heard from you. We heard about how many seats were at the high top. We asked the bartender how john o'keefe tipped. Now we get some more of the nuts and bolts and then what was he drinking?

Anngelle Wood: 40:28

we're gonna drill right.

Dubs: 40:30

We're gonna drill right down on the people who were at the house yep, and I think they'll go peripheral first, like like he's continuing to do so. He'll call, maybe, people who were with the group at the waterfall but didn't go back to the house first. Right, that seems to be the trend. I think we're out of those at this point, because Jen and Matt were at 34, so was Brian, so was so was other Brian, so was Nicole. So who are we left with? I don't think anyone at this point, but I do think that he will definitely call Matt McCabe before he calls Jen, because his testimony will be more peripheral and less direct than Jen McCabe's. There's going to be a lot of territory to cover with Jen, because I think she's going to end up being for lack of a better term the Commonwealth star witness. I mean, she was there at the bar, she was there at the house, she was the one texting with John O'Keefe.

Anngelle Wood: 41:38

She was the one who turned him over.

Dubs: 41:39

Yeah, she did. She said that her Karen and Carrie were the ones who turned him over. She was the first phone call that Karen made that morning. That's right. She has been on the front lines of this entire situation from pre-event to after, so it is imperative that her testimony and her line of questioning, more importantly, comes out the way it should and in the order that it should. So I think that they'll go with other folks that were in the house who maybe left before Karen and John showed up first. So they'll probably have Caitlin, Albert, Brian, Albert Jr.

Dubs: 42:21

I would assume they'll talk to Colin and his testimony is going to be people are thinking there's going to be big doings with him and I really don't think that's the case. I think that Lally will get him up there. He'll say I went to my cousin's birthday party for a little while, called Allie McCabe for a ride home, got a ride home, was home by 1230 and went to bed. Yep, Wow. I don't think they'll get any more out of him, Because a big part of his parents' testimony too was did you see any injuries on your son when he came home that night? And both of them said no.

Anngelle Wood: 43:03

No, right. So so far all of this testimony has been for the prosecution, correct? Yes, so we've probably got quite a ways to go until it's turned over to the defense. Who do you suspect because certainly you have much more knowledge about everything that has to do with this case, quite frankly, than I do who do you suspect will be called to testify on behalf of Karen Reid in the defense, Apart from experts?

Dubs: 43:42

Yeah, Well, I would assume, yeah, I would assume that. Well, let me back up. Actually Didn't they have? There were so many motions the week before trial. I'm trying to remember because I know they had a motion with regard to good character evidence for karen and I think that, um, the motion to not have them present witnesses, um, for her good character, was actually granted. So I don't think she has any good character witnesses coming to her rescue as far as I can remember, but I'll double check that and I mean, apart from experts, I mean her family's sitting in there, so obviously they're not witnesses.

Dubs: 44:35

I mean a witness can't sit and listen to the testimony of all the other witnesses that came before. I do know the defense has a couple of people on their witness list that the Commonwealth doesn't have, and I'd be. I know there's a ton of overlap also, so I can say that anybody that the Commonwealth has decided not to call that the defense also has listed on their witness list can be called. So I'd be interested to hear particularly from what's his name, brian Loughran, who is the lucky the plow driver. I'll be interested to hear his testimony because he's been very adamant since day one that he didn't see anything on the lawn at 2.30, 3 o'clock in the morning, so if there's no body there, how to get there?

Anngelle Wood: 45:31

That's the million dollar question. It absolutely is Wow. Still, I am no closer to having an opinion about this case. I don't.

Dubs: 45:43

I don't think that there was much to form an opinion on apart from that. That 911 call this week that was the big, the big piece of information, and also that damn dash cam video of the back of Karen's car, which doesn't show us much of anything. There was actually another thing that people are reading a lot into and I'm not really sure where I stand on it. So I'd actually love to get your opinion. I don't know how familiar you are with the solo cup issue. I'm not familiar at all.

Dubs: 46:18

Okay, when the canton police once john o'keefe's body is transported to good samaritan hospital, they are working with a very fluid, very insecure crime scene. Um, it's been bandied about that they didn't secure it. It turns out they did. They tried, tried with the crime scene tape, but because of the way that, um, the wind was blowing and everything else, they they couldn't keep it up, so they took it down, but they used a leaf blower to remove the newly fallen snow from the immediate area around where John's body was found, and that, I mean to me like props for creativity, but that is a potential nightmare for any evidence that's not frozen to the ground. So I mean, you're talking what? Like fibers, you're talking, hair, you're talking anything like that is going to be gone or blown to a different end of the yard.

Dubs: 47:25

But when they did this with the leaf flower, they uncovered six blood droplets in the snow. And they don't. Apparently they don't travel with evidence containers, so and it's it's up in the air as to whether they actually had anything appropriate at Canton PD. So Tom Pelleher, who's somehow, I believe he was a lieutenant at the Canton PD, lived across the street from Brian Albert and he provided an unopened package of Solo cups. Thank God, because without them, who knew?

Dubs: 48:08

But they collected these blood droplets in individual Solo cups and then put the individual Solo cups into a stop and shop bag, cups into a stop and shop bag, like just standing up like a six pack in the bottom of this bag. And when they brought it back to Canton PD, it's just sitting in the sally port with her car. So there is. There are pictures of this quote unquote evidence bag. It's not, it's a paper bag that says stop and shop, on the side of it full of solo cups which have melted snow with blood in it and it's sitting very close to Karen Reed's vehicle. You can deduce is well, at what point was dna from that blood in those cups transferred, either inadvertently or on purpose, to the undercarriage and back end of karen's car, oh lord yeah yeah, I'm.

Anngelle Wood: 49:11

I'm also disappointed that it wasn't a market basket bag do?

Dubs: 49:14

they even have paper bags at Market Basket. They do oh, wow.

Anngelle Wood: 49:19

Because I'm all MB all the time.

Dubs: 49:22

That's a mess, it's troubling, it absolutely is it's. I mean not because you would automatically go to a place where you'd assume, well, there's transfer, it's bad. But like, is there any evidence that we're talking about in court, particularly pertaining to these blood droplets found in the snow? Or is it sort of a foregone conclusion that it's John's DNA and they just kind of aren't going to bring it up? Like, where did it go after it's on the floor in the Sallyport? Like that is a. That's an issue People are going to have trouble with that.

Anngelle Wood: 50:02

You know what I think when I hear exactly that information that you just delivered to me leaf blower, red solo cups, stop and shop bag. Sorry, it's not a market basket bag. You know what comes. You know what the first word that comes to mind when I hear that.

Dubs: 50:21

The amateur hour.

Anngelle Wood: 50:22

Acquittal. Yeah, the first word that comes to me is acquittal, because that's a hot mess and it jurors aren't that stupid.

Dubs: 50:33

Yeah yeah, this is not. I mean, no matter what the testimony says, the evidence to me is speaking to acquittal, just on technicalities Like why the hell is this here? Why is this here? Why is this not secured? Why were these people just allowed to remain where they were? Why were these people allowed to talk to each other in between statements made on record to the police? This is problematic. It really really is. Who cares if the Alberts and the Proctors were really good friends? It doesn't matter if you've got his blood unsecured right next to what they're purporting to be the murder weapon.

Anngelle Wood: 51:20

It's a problem Somebody's blood? Because we do. We know whose blood that is. You put snow I don't mean to laugh, it's just the absurdity of it. You put snow that has blood drops in it into a plastic cup, into a bag. You know what happens to snow it melts, yep. So there's no. Can you truly test that conclusively now, after it's been diluted with melted snow? I got to hear the science on that.

Dubs: 52:07

I want to hear from the forensics folks and anyone who did any testing on this, any of the physical evidence, really like any of it. I want to hear from all of them and I want to know exactly what they did and I want to know exactly how each piece of evidence was secured, because I we're hearing an awful lot from way back in hearings to now about these 37, no wait, 40, no wait, 45, no wait 47 pieces of daylight that mysteriously appeared once the snow melted. Like that is how snow works. I'm sorry, but this I have trouble with people going like well, it just magically appeared, it didn't, it was in the snow and the snow melted and it being red, it was probably readily apparent once the snow melted.

Dubs: 53:06

Like I hate saying it like that, but that is one of those things where it's like, okay, but these, these cops just showing up at Fairview, constantly finding pieces of taillight and not really not photographing their, their evidence collection, they're just saying, oh, this was on the lawn, I'm just going to pull it and put it in evidence. Like you need a track record for that, you need a chain of custody for that, and there's no chain of custody for a lot of these pieces of physical evidence. So you cannot. I mean, the best course of action there is just to not use them. Don't present them, because if you can't vouch for them and where they've been every second, you can't use them. There's a doctrine on that. It's called fruit of the poisonous tree.

Anngelle Wood: 54:11

And this is where reasonable doubt comes in, because this is where it's going to be oh, there's a mountain of it. There's a whole lot. We know this, but not listening to the public outcry of you know she's guilty, or the public outcry she's innocent, right? I don't. I don't want to pay any attention to all that you have to tune that out.

Anngelle Wood: 54:40

Oh, shit shows. I. I don't want to be any part of that right. Um, because what it is about? It's about justice, and justice isn't just presuming you know what happened because somebody's telling you, right, that's that second, third, fourth, fifth hand information. Yes, I gotta know the shit from the people who can tell me exactly what happened with the shit. That's what I want to know. Um, this is what this, this red solo cup, leaf blower, grocery store bag it's sounding to me second weekend that there's grounds for an acquittal. I don't know. There's a long way to go and I could feel very differently about this next week and the week after that. It's not right, doesn't sound right to me.

Dubs: 55:26

No, I mean like in, in fairness, you have to give them a little bit of leeway for the fact that this crime scene was being destroyed in front of them. With the weather, they have to do what they can with what they have. I get that, I get it and I'm all for it. Props a hundred percent for creativity and for ingenuity, but at the same time, you cannot depend on evidence that was not gathered properly in order to convict somebody of murder. You can't do it.

Anngelle Wood: 56:01

Mm-hmm. We know of cases where it's very likely that person was guilty, but they were acquitted on technicalities. Yeah, his name was OJ Simpson acquitted on technicalities.

Dubs: 56:13

Yeah, his name was OJ Simpson.

Dubs: 56:15

When they had him put that glove on the prosecution should have been like absolutely not, that shouldn't have been allowed to happen. It really shouldn't have even been allowed to happen. The prosecution should have objected to that before Cochran even got it halfway out of his mouth, like that is not a proper way whatsoever to determine someone's guilt or innocence. I'm sorry, it's just not like the blood on the bronco, the all that the mountain of physical evidence in favor of his guilt was completely negated by this one thing and it. It was all showmanship, it was a hundred percent, for lack of a better term razzle, dazzle.

Anngelle Wood: 57:00

It was, and I say it, and I said it before it's whoever's going to tell the best story.

Dubs: 57:06

Yep. And well, if we're going on that right now I'm not feeling too great about about Yannettietti, because I saw you saw him get very flustered today not being able to trip up his witness, get his witness to say what he wanted them to say. These witnesses they're. I mean, say what you want about the Alberts, whether you think they're cold blooded killers or not, these people know how to handle themselves under pressure. Chris and Julie both were very stoic under the pressure that Yannetti was putting on them and they weren't given an inch. So you got to give them props for that, whether they're guilty of something or not.

Anngelle Wood: 57:53

We may never, ever know what involvement, if any, that they had. Well, thank you. My head's spinning a little bit given the information about how I'll say, sloppy. However, I don't know what they were battling. They were obviously battling the elements. Maybe we'll find out a little bit more about what was happening on the ground as they're discovering all of this stuff, but maybe that ship already sailed. Maybe we know all that there's going to be known about the collection of that evidence the red cups, the paper bag.

Dubs: 58:36

Well, just to throw your mind a little, a little, one more little twister there. We did hear from one of the police on the scene and I want to say it was Sergeant Good, but I can't remember. No, it was Lank good, but I can't remember exactly.

Dubs: 58:55

No, it was lank, I'm pretty sure I can't remember positively so please don't kill me for this, but somebody testified that they had called the cert team for the mass state police. They had called the state police team for special investigations to get somebody on the ground over there and because john o'keefe was not deceased yet they would not dispatch. So they were the camp police, were in charge of the integrity of that crime scene until mass state police agreed to dispatch their special operations for evidence they knew who who he was.

Anngelle Wood: 59:35

They knew it was john o'keefe officer john o'keefe of the boston pd. They knew who it was. Yes, why did they not act?

Dubs: 59:46

yeah I. I just had a loss he's a fucking cop why did you?

Anngelle Wood: 59:53

not handle this case better?

Dubs: 59:55

To people standing on the outside who are maybe not in the cop brotherhood because I know I'm not. It looked to me like they just didn't give it any sort of special attention. They didn't give it any special treatment and, you know, one would hope that they treat all homicide investigations the same, but at the same time, if it's a cop, you're going to want to make sure doubly that everything is done correctly.

Anngelle Wood: 1:00:25

Very recently in the news there was an officer a Bill Ricka officer, ann Taylor, who was killed in a horrible accident. An excavation machine, as I understand it, fell on him and he died as a result and there was an outpouring. Now, certainly it was an accident. We know it wasn't a criminal thing. Maybe there'll be some negligent cases down the line, I don know. But I know how the officers on his force in, I know the officers on on forces around us. I know how civilians handled that. It's horrible, but he was treated with the utmost respect.

Anngelle Wood: 1:01:09

We have an officer here that was lying unconscious in the snow. What were they just saying? Oh he, he was drunk and he passed out. And like what were they thinking? I, I, I don't get it it yeah, it doesn't.

Dubs: 1:01:27

It doesn't ring as as poignantly as any other police death investigation you hear about these days, right, like even whether it's the line of duty or in an accident. Or even we had a retired police officer in our town pass away from natural causes at like 85. And everybody in town turned out to support his family, to show their love for him. To you know, thank him and his family did for this town. But, like, what is different about this? Why doesn't john get this?

Anngelle Wood: 1:02:10

it doesn't, is it because he was a boston cop. He wasn't a Canton cop. I mean, why should that matter?

Dubs: 1:02:15

It shouldn't, especially considering the state police took this over.

Anngelle Wood: 1:02:21

Every time I talk about this case, I come up with more questions about this case, yep.

Dubs: 1:02:28

Every conversation I have about it, I'm like wait. I went into this with a clear picture of what my argument was, and now I can't remember for the life of me what supported that argument.

Anngelle Wood: 1:02:39

Why did the cops not treat a cop better?

Dubs: 1:02:42

It doesn't make sense. That part of it has bothered me deeply since, since the beginning of this circus that has begun with with all the coverage and all the arguments and all the I know better than you sort of bully tactics people are employing.

Anngelle Wood: 1:03:00

I heard.

Dubs: 1:03:02

Like at the core of it there is a police officer who has lost his life. Why isn't this treated with more respect, more vigor, by the investigating officers?

Anngelle Wood: 1:03:16

I mean, I have so many questions Like if he there wasn't a lot of blood evidence in the snow. When we've been able to sort that, it was because of the weather and the temperature and the way that we found out he was laying. He was laying on his on face down. They didn't know if he was shot or stabbed or drugged or intoxicated, Like they didn't know any of that at that point.

Dubs: 1:03:48

No, but they just had a responsive guy in the snow.

Anngelle Wood: 1:03:52

That was still their response to a man laying in the snow and they knew who it was at that point that it was an officer. I think that's fucked.

Dubs: 1:04:05

Yeah, pretty severely. No matter who's to blame for it, it's fucked the way it was treated from minute one.

Anngelle Wood: 1:04:13

This case is a mess.

Dubs: 1:04:15

It's disaster.

Anngelle Wood: 1:04:17

It really is. It's a the way it was treated from minute one. This case is a mess.

Dubs: 1:04:20

It's disaster, it really is. It's a shit salad. It is, it is. It's like actually I go a little further it's like a shit tornado, because there's just like new pieces of things flying out at all times and new things getting sucked into it and it's just a vortex of ridiculous.

Anngelle Wood: 1:04:38

I definitely want to watch when Jen McCabe is called.

Dubs: 1:04:41

Well, I will be texting you that morning. I'll let you know.

Anngelle Wood: 1:04:45

And absolutely, most definitely when we move on to the forensics and the evidence about John O'Keefe's physical condition, like that's really what I need to know about.

Dubs: 1:04:59

Oh, all right, they showed the cocktail glass that they found next to him in court. They pulled it out. It was just yeah, the whole base was intact. And then it was like all jagged like halfway up, so it's like somebody took a high ball and broke the rim off it. That's what it looked like.

Anngelle Wood: 1:05:23

And what are they? So? What? What are they saying? The story is about that again, another unknown. Well, we found a broken glass out in the snow.

Dubs: 1:05:32

Oh no, you see him on the video from the waterfall, pick it up off the table and just walk out the door with it. Interesting because he was drinking beer all night. So whose drink was that?

Anngelle Wood: 1:05:44

Okay, so let's back up. So, John O'Keefe leaves the waterfall with a cocktail, I mean there had to be something in it, because no one wants an empty glass.

Dubs: 1:05:56

Yeah, there was liquid in it. It looked like brown liquid. So at one point I believe it was Chris Albert had bought a round of fireball shots for everyone. It could have been that. Yeah, I know, I don't know why anyone would drink that, but you know, maybe they ran out of shot glasses and he asked for it on ice, sure you know it's in a high volume bed and they found it at the alberts, in the alberts driveway, in the in the lawn by by john's remains well, his, his body, because he wasn't deceased right.

Dubs: 1:06:33

So where he was located in the morning, the cocktail glass was in that area. I don't know if it was touching him. There wasn't any indication or testimony about blood being on it, so I think no. But um, you can see it being uncovered when they're leaf blowing that incredibly scientific tactic. They use the leaf blower.

Anngelle Wood: 1:06:56

Sounds like a Quentin Tarantino movie, doesn't it? It really does Hit a flamethrower, next one. So now that poses a whole bunch of questions. Yep, fingerprints on that glass, just John O'Keefe's, oh, and of course the bartender, whomever poured the drink, or if someone handed it to him at some point.

Dubs: 1:07:17

Their prints would be on it too. But how much of that would be intact after being in a snowstorm too?

Anngelle Wood: 1:07:24

Did they question the bartender at any point about the glasses that they used to serve the alcohol? I mean, that would have been interesting. They did.

Dubs: 1:07:32

And it was very underwhelming actually, I don't know I been interesting they did and it was very underwhelming.

Anngelle Wood: 1:07:36

Actually, I don't know, I'm just a bartender.

Dubs: 1:07:39

What if any glasses are used to serve cocktails at your bar, and what if any glasses are? He's not a very strong speaker. I'll say it again. He got to the heart of it at least. It took him a minute, but he did. He did ask where they get their glassware from, and this poor girl on the stand was like I do not know. Hopefully it won't come to that.

Anngelle Wood: 1:08:06

The glass story is an important one because it could paint more of the picture. Did it come from inside the house or did it come from outside the house?

Dubs: 1:08:18

That's the point he's trying to get to, I think, with this questioning. So I'm sure that it'll come back up with questioning Brian and Nicole Albert as to what the glasses that they use to serve drinks and look like and who made them and everything like that. So I think it's. It's pretty clear, though you can tell from the video what the glass looked like he walked out with and then they pulled this glass out in the courtroom. It's very obviously, if not the exact same glass, a very similar glass. So any reasonable person would draw that distinction. But you're sitting in a high stakes environment. Someone's life is on the line. You're not going to go. Well, you know, good enough is good enough. You want to know exactly.

Anngelle Wood: 1:09:05

In this conversation. I now have about 17 new questions about this place that we may or may not ever get the answer to. That's fair. I'm just going to have to pay a little bit more close attention if I want to attempt to have some of these questions answered for myself, though I find it difficult to sit through some of this testimony.

Dubs: 1:09:29

I fell asleep the other day.

Anngelle Wood: 1:09:32

And because today was the day that big tough guy, adam Montgomery, was being sentenced in New Hampshire, I did change channels over to WMUR to find out exactly what kind of justice was served to that son of a bitch.

Dubs: 1:09:50

Did you get to hear the victim impact statements? I did.

Anngelle Wood: 1:09:53

I heard several of them and he is going to prison forever. I cannot see that man ever getting out. He won't. I don't know if he's the kind of guy that can be humble enough to shut his trap. I can see him getting some prison justice. I don't wish that. Maybe a little bit.

Dubs: 1:10:19

No, this guy, he's an exception. He's an exception. I'm with you. He should be made to suffer every second of every day of the rest of his life.

Anngelle Wood: 1:10:30

Let's put it this way I would like human nature to run its course. There you go, and we know that. Human nature, hi buddy. We know that human nature on the inside is very different than it is on the outside, where all of us live.

Dubs: 1:10:47

Where law and morals and, you know, politeness sometimes come into play, at least if you're a normal, well-raised human being. He is just this smug shit Like I see the look on his face when they made him show up At least the judge made him sit there for his sentencing, like he should have to listen to the words of his child's mother, of his wife that he abused horribly to keep her quiet. The two dads of Harmony's little brother, though. That broke me.

Anngelle Wood: 1:11:27

That was hard.

Dubs: 1:11:28

I started reading their little boy's words, I lost it.

Anngelle Wood: 1:11:32

I don't want to hear from Kayla Montgomery. I have a good feeling. No, I really don't care. I lost it.

Dubs: 1:11:35

I don't want to hear from Kayla Montgomery. I really don't care.

Anngelle Wood: 1:11:38

I understand. I understand that drugs change you and they strip you of your soul, and I understand that. Yet still I have trouble knowing what happens in that car that day, whatever happened leading up to that day. There there are things that she could have done, but that what happened in that car that day? I have a lot of trouble with um, she is where she belongs.

Dubs: 1:12:10

As far as I'm concerned, she's just as guilty as he is, because she I mean I get the aftermath and, and you know suffering some abuse at his hands. Like obviously I would never condone that. But at the same time she let this happen.

Anngelle Wood: 1:12:28

She was as responsible for those children as he was at that point, when I hear that she carried that baby's body around in the carriage with her own children, that I have no words for that.

Dubs: 1:12:48

No.

Anngelle Wood: 1:12:50

Outrageous, doesn't even come close. She transported that bag.

Dubs: 1:12:57

I mean, she hid her from this family that loves her and allowed this bullshit to go on. It's just so terrible.

Anngelle Wood: 1:13:07

So that's my cue. I've got to go feed these little D-bags. I love them, but they're very demanding. Thank you for your time. I mean, I'm sure we'll be texting about what happens, but if there's some more bombshells this week, we should probably catch up next week I'm, I'm here for it, whatever you want I gotta be honest, I've been too busy to really drill down on this, so you've been really helpful putting this into some sort of perspective.

Dubs: 1:13:34

I'll see you next Friday anyway.

Anngelle Wood: 1:13:37

Oh great, We'll be at the Mass State House for Children's Advocacy Day. Mm-hmm. Thank you, Dobs, for everything All right.

Anngelle Wood: 1:13:47

All right. Thank you very much. The John O'Keefe trial is ongoing. It started last Monday and while some information we have learned has been revealing, maybe even a bit enlightening, but I find I have more and more questions. Thank you for listening. This is episode 64. Thank you for listening. This is episode 64. Consider it a bonus. The goal is to release a brand new episode every other friday next week.

Anngelle Wood: 1:14:25

I will be putting my advocacy into action, going to the justice for beth Brody. Protest. We protest her murderer being released from prison. You can send a letter to the parole board telling them he should not be released. Same goes for the family of Janet Downing. I have spoken a little bit about Janet's case in my social feeds and I intend to talk more about her case in the upcoming weeks. Her murderer is seeking to be paroled and will also go before the parole board in June, and I told one of her family members online. I will be there, if I can, just to support the family.

Anngelle Wood: 1:15:20

On Friday, the 17th, we will be meeting at the Massachusetts Statehouse in Great Hall for Children's Advocacy Day in Remembrance of Missing and Murdered Children in the State of Massachusetts. Julie Murray, sister of missing woman Maura Murray, is the keynote speaker and it is part of the coalition I have told you about. Well, I think I clued you in a little bit on last week's show. We have formed something that we call Massachusetts Missing and Murdered Persons Advocacy Coalition MPAC. It is a community-led organization with the purpose of supporting Massachusetts families of missing and murdered loved ones, massachusetts families of missing and murdered loved ones, and it's not solely for cases that remain unsolved. My intention is always to support families who have gone through this, much like we're doing with Beth Brody's family. Beth Brody's murder was solved. Someone was brought to trial, convicted and sent to prison. But it doesn't end there and, like Janet Downing's family, her murderer was caught, brought to trial, convicted, sent to prison and now he's trying to get out.

Anngelle Wood: 1:16:44

In July 1995, 42-year-old Janet Downing, mother of four children, was found stabbed 98 times in her Somerville home. The person responsible was the 15-year-old best friend of her son, edward O'Brien, now a grown man. He wants to get out and if you are a family member of a missing or murdered loved one in Massachusetts, member of a missing or murdered loved one in Massachusetts, please reach out to me, please let us know about your case and please do come on May 17th, if you are able. There will be events going forward through MPAC and we want to reach out to all families. We don't want anybody to feel left out, and I think that's often been the case with families. They feel kind of deserted, not kind of they feel deserted.

Anngelle Wood: 1:17:42

This has been another extraordinarily long episode. I'm going to go before my dogs stop barking again. Thank you to all my superb Patreon patrons, especially my superstars Lisa McColgan, rhiannon and those of you who help keep this thing afloat. I need you. I appreciate you. Support the show. Patreoncom slash crime of the truest kind. Follow the show at crime of the truest kind. Tell your friends about crime of the truest kind. Give the show a five-star rating and an excellent review on Apple Podcasts. I actually have not looked at my reviews on Apple Podcasts lately. If I have some new ones to read, I'm not sure. All right, until we speak again in two weeks, lock your goddamn doors. We'll be you next time.