Crime of the Truest Kind
Massachusetts and New England true crime, local history, advocacy-focused podcast - the things that happen here. Created and hosted by Boston radio personality, Anngelle Wood (WFNX, WBCN, WZLX); each episode walks you through a local crime story and the people and places involved.
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Crime of the Truest Kind
EP 63 | The John O'Keefe Murder Trial, Canton, Massachusetts with Dubs the True Crime Bloodhound
Episode 63 is a walk through the frenzy that is called "The Canton Cover-up" by some, others see it as a national spectacle.
Canton, the small town 20 miles outside Boston, is no stranger to tragedy. Over three decades ago, sweet, trusting 14-year-old Shawn Ouillette was lured into the woods, beaten, and left for dead. His 14-year-old schoolmate and eventual killer said no one would miss him. He wanted to know what it felt like to kill. That was 1986. Shawn is still missed by all who love him. His killer, Rod Matthews, remains in prison.
The present day events surrounding John O'Keefe's death have split that same small town in two. The case of a 46-year-old surrogate father to his sister's orphaned kids and 16-year veteran of the Boston Police Department is an absolute shit show to no fault of his own. Lost, as is always the case, is the victim themselves.
John O'Keefe was so beloved that a GoFundMe fundraising page set up for his niece and nephew after he died, had raised more than $245,000 within its first 24 hours.
Karen Read, 44, John O'Keefe's longtime girlfriend, was arrested within days of his death and charged with drunkenly backing into him in her SUV in a snowstorm and leaving him to bleed out and freeze to death. Read has amassed a group of supporters for what some locals refer to as a "frame job" by a bunch of dirty town cops, staties, FBI agents, and DAs.
The cases I refer to in this episode include: Jeffrey Curley (Cambridge, Mass, 1997) was 10 when he was taken by a neighbor with the promise of a bike, abused and killed. His murderers were put away by then-prosecutor, David Yannetti, who is now defending Read.
Beth Brodie (Groveland, Mass, 1992) was 15 when a boy who demanded her affection planned an attack with a bat and killed her in a neighbor's bedroom. Visit JusticeforBethBrodie.com - her killer is up for parole, the hearing is Thurs, May 16 in Natick. Write the parole board and tell them No Parole for Richard Baldwin, W56202
Molly Bish (Warren, Mass, 2000) was 16 when she disappeared from her lifeguard job at Comins Pond. Her remains were found 3 years later in nearby Palmer. Missing Children's Day was meant to honor Molly and other missing kids. We meet on Fri, May 17 at Massachusetts State House in Boston from 11am-1pm. Julie Murray is key note speaker.
Thanks to Dubs of True Crime Bloodhound |
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Music included in episodes from Joe "onlyone" Kowalski, Dug McCormack's Math Ghosts and Shredding by Andrew King
Well, hello, my name is Anngelle Wood, and this is Crime of the Truest Kind. Well, it has been a fun-filled couple of weeks in my world and, well, a fun-filled couple of weeks in terms of crime in Massachusetts, my home state. Fun isn't really the appropriate word here, though. Well, it is in terms of the music festival that I have been fully engrossed in, buried almost entirely, and, yes, I'm sorry to say that Crime of the Truest Kind has suffered as a result of focusing almost all of my waking energy into these nine nights of live music. The Rock and Roll Rumble concludes Saturday night, may 4th, at Sonia in Cambridge, massachusetts. It's something that I have been a part of for a very long time and it is all associated with my rock and roll radio career. It is most definitely a very good time.
Anngelle Wood:When I reference Massachusetts crime in terms of current events, I'm referring to what is called everywhere as the Karen Reed trial. I don't call it that. I call it the John O'Keefe murder trial. John O'Keefe died in the snow covered with abrasions, a foul injury to the back of his head, and I will tell you now, as I will tell you throughout this upcoming interview, I have not been following the Karen Reed slash John O'Keefe case very closely because, quite frankly, it is a goddamn media circus here in Massachusetts, more so now that it's being televised. That doesn't make me feel any less compassionate for everybody involved. There's a mourning family. There are two kids who lost their surrogate father and a woman on trial who may or may not be guilty for what she's being charged with. Thank you for being here. And there was a lot going on in this true crime world I now find myself a part of and it has everything to do with advocacy here in my home state of Massachusetts. But I will tell you this part of the advocacy that I am making time for and participating in.
Anngelle Wood:Two things coming up in mid-May, On Thursday May 16th, the family of Beth Brody, the 15-year-old girl who was murdered in Groveland Massachusetts by a boy with a baseball bat in Groveland Massachusetts, by a boy with a baseball bat. It's a grim story and I do cover it in a past episode. Beth's family is once again faced with the prospect of her killer being granted parole. We do not want that to happen, so we are mobilizing and we will be there in full force at the parole board hearing in Natick, massachusetts, on Thursday May 16th. The following day, friday May 17th, I will be a part of what is known as Missing Children's Advocacy Day is known as Missing Children's Advocacy Day First started by the family of Molly Bish, a young woman who disappeared and whose remains were found near her home in Warren, massachusetts.
Anngelle Wood:Missing Children's Advocacy Day will take place at Great Hall at the Massachusetts State House in Boston. It is open to the public. Many of my colleagues in advocacy will be there. Julie Murray is the keynote speaker at this event. Julie Murray, many of you know, is the sister of Maura Murray, who is still missing, has been missing for 20 years. The Murrays are from Massachusetts. Maura Murray grew up in Hanson and she was a student at UMass in Amherst. And I can say this the Murrays are assholes just like me. I did have a laugh with Fred Murray, mara and Julie's dad at the vigil in February. We did laugh about being assholes. We're pretty proud of it. All of this. Information, of course, on these upcoming advocacy events will be posted at crimeofthetruestkindcom. And I can say this we have put together a coalition, an advocacy coalition, to support Massachusetts families of missing and murdered loved ones. Much more information will be available about that very soon. Much more information will be available about that very soon.
Anngelle Wood:Today's episode episode 63, is a conversation about the John O'Keefe murder trial that got underway this week in Dedham, massachusetts. I don't know a lot about the case. I have not been following it very closely closely like a number of other people have. Maybe some of you listening today this is the first time you've listened to Crime of the Truest Kind, because maybe you're curious what we have to say about the John O'Keefe murder trial. I talked to Dubs. Dubs is the true crime bloodhound. That is what she calls her podcast. I met Dubs at one of my live crime events, which there will be more of Dubs has been following to die in the snow. But we'll talk about all of that. It is a complicated case and we are only four days into testimony of what will likely be three or four months at this rate. Buckle up. This is episode 63. The John O'Keefe murder trial, canton, massachusetts, with my guest, dubs.
Dubs:I really have ignored this case for a while. I'm aware of it. It's really polarizing. Yeah, I think divisive has become like the most typed word on my phone since April. Like if you did a word cloud of my phone it would be divisive, like huge in the middle and everything else would be like floating around it in this little circle.
Anngelle Wood:It's a phenomenon, uh, I mean. Yeah, crime stories happen. We've had a number of them. I mean canton, the, the town of canton is no stranger to it. A big case going back many, many years ago was this 14 yearyear-old boy, sean Millett, who was murdered by another kid. That's such a sad story.
Dubs:It is.
Anngelle Wood:But so many years have transpired since then. So now the locals are like oh, we have this other monster case facing us. You have been following this really since the beginning, would you?
Dubs:say I remember reading in the news the day after that there was a Boston police officer that was found killed on the front lawn of another police officer's home, and then I heard when Karen was arrested. And then I didn't hear anything for over a year anything for over a year?
Anngelle Wood:What was the time span between when John O'Keefe was found dead and when she was arrested and accused of killing him?
Dubs:I believe it was only a few days. Bad part is, the wealth of this conspiracy can pretty much be traced back to the way that people feel about how the police handled the investigation into John O'Keefe's death. Who was a cop himself. Yes, exactly. And you would think that all the T's would be double crossed, all the I's would be double dotted in a case like this. You know it's a cop, they're your brothers. You have to. You know, the thin blue line is there for a reason, Like they protect their own.
Anngelle Wood:But in this case, that's what we're taught to believe, right, we're taught to believe that this agency they band together and take care of one another. But something has fallen here in Canton, Massachusetts, oh yeah.
Dubs:It was such a strange thing. So she actually was arrested February 2nd. So it was only yeah, it was only two days, three days after he was found on Brian Albert's front lawn. So it's an interesting thing when you look back at it, like everything happened very, very fast and then nothing happened at all for almost a year.
Anngelle Wood:I don't recall any information in that period of time. I don't even remember anybody talking about it or really any chatter online about it after that not, and it was like a full year before they started talking about it again in the press.
Dubs:Well, not until Aiden Kearney picked it up, uh-huh.
Anngelle Wood:What's his connection? A blogger just got some inside information.
Dubs:He got a tip on the story from somebody who knows somebody. Who knows somebody you know it was a friend of Karen's had given some information to a woman local to Canton and he took it and ran with it. So that was just about a year ago because no one cared until he picked it up.
Anngelle Wood:People ask me about this case a lot because they know I'm in Massachusetts and they know I talk about crime stuff. But I never really had a definitive answer about what I thought one way or the other. I thought that it was bananas. I thought that there was this really sort of culty mentality around it. I don't have any way to know whether she did it or not I don't think anybody does.
Dubs:To be honest, I think, even though she's on trial right now and it's slated to be the trial, I still don't think at the end of this, regardless of what the verdict is, we're actually really going to know one way or the other.
Anngelle Wood:I find it pretty unfair that yes, I know that it's a media circus. I just turned into this for the last many, many months, many months. I don't like how everybody just focuses on the way she, her facial expressions or her boots or how she's wearing her hair. Yeah, she's on trial. Yes, she could potentially be convicted of second degree murder and we're gonna talk about her fucking boots yeah, we are gonna talk about her boots.
Dubs:She dresses like a mafia.
Dubs:Don though like I don't know if you've seen the recent I think it was like the last motion hearing they had for her. She was wearing this like black power suit with like bright gold buttons and I was like that's, she's a mafia don. That's what's going on. She's sitting at the table like she's got her fingers, just like this. I'm like oh boy. But I mean, the facial expressions are kind of hard to let go of, considering that the mass media cameras in the courtroom are like, 90 percent of the time, just focus straight on her face.
Anngelle Wood:Just to see her reaction.
Dubs:Yeah, and she's like me. She can't like it. It seems like she doesn't know when to shut up her face just to see her reaction. Yeah, and she's like me, she can't like it.
Dubs:It seems like she doesn't know when to shut up her face, like there's a lot of time where she'll sit there just like staring daggers at opposing counsel and you're like whoa, whoa, reign it in. Man, reign it in like rbf is one thing, but you can't look so pissed in front of a jury because it's gonna look bad one thing but you can't look so pissed in front of a jury because it's going to look bad.
Anngelle Wood:It is going to look bad for her and I see that the O'Keeffe family is like sitting basically next to her next to the defense's table.
Dubs:That has to do with the smaller courtroom they got for this, this trial. There was a motion hearing about this last week actually because the jury the way that the jury is seated in Bev Canone's normal courtroom not every single one of them has an unobstructed view of both the witness stand and the defense table. So they filed a motion saying, like she, it's her right to face her accusers and it's her it's their right to see everything all the time. So Bev Canone passed the motion to move it to a smaller courtroom and I think also it was strategic to kind of get her supporters to stay outside cases like this always generate a lot of emotion and it's been building.
Anngelle Wood:I've even seen yard signs for karen reed in like qr codes on the yard sign. So I don't know how many people are going to stop and click a qr code on a sign in front of somebody's house. I I mean props to you for going through all that and getting that printed up and putting that QR code on your yard sign.
Dubs:You know where that QR code goes? No, turtle Boy made a video.
Anngelle Wood:Well, I will say this, and this will probably anger some people and okay, he's not a journalist, it's okay to be a writer. I mean, look, he's not a journalist, it's okay to be a writer. I mean, look, I'm not a journalist either, and I write stories about news items. I'm not a journalist, I don't call myself a journalist, but I have been a professional radio broadcaster for a number of years. That doesn't mean anything either. It just means that I can like talk into a mic, and I know a lot about Soundgarden. It doesn't make me a journalist. It's interesting that this story has been able to affect people the way it has. Why do you think that?
Dubs:is actually about this case because you know, I wasn't on YouTube, I wasn't doing a podcast, I wasn't public in any way before this came about, and I went to a court date in July just to see, just to be a part of this insane energy that was going on outside the courthouse. I just wanted to see I didn't really have an opinion one way or the other that you know why the hell not. So I showed up, I went and I have I. That led to everything that came after as far as, like, my own journey in this world of broadcast podcast media, whatever you want to call it and without that I wouldn't be sitting here with you.
Anngelle Wood:Oh, that's really interesting, so this sparks all of this crime joy in your soul Gave me.
Dubs:it just gave me a voice. You know as well as I do there are probably what hundreds, if not thousands, of true crime podcasts out there and it's it's been something of a dream of mine to be on one, to host one. It's always been something I've wanted to do and I never had any stepping off point. I didn't want to just sit down with a microphone and go, hey, you know, I wanted to try it with somebody else first and see where I got. And you know, I jumped on with a microphone and go, hey, you know, I wanted to try it with somebody else first and see where I got. And you know, uh, I I jumped on with Kevin Linehan from yellow cottage tales for one episode and then I joined the show and we were off to the races, like you know. But I've met some people through this whole thing who are either ride or die or you. You say the wrong thing one time and they write you off completely it's.
Anngelle Wood:I've never seen behavior like this in my life and it's not just people in Canton, it's people all over Massachusetts and, at this point, nationwide and probably worldwide, because of the nature of the Internet. That and Court TV.
Dubs:Oh yeah, I got to meet Vinnie Palaton last night, oh.
Anngelle Wood:Where is he hanging out?
Dubs:Blue Ribbon Barbecue in Dedham and he was taping a spot with my friend Kevin. So I went down to watch them tape and I got to meet him and I was like I would not be standing here if this stuff never went down. This is insane.
Anngelle Wood:I mean, I'll be absolutely honest. I told you from from the jump when we first met at one of my live events in Beverly, oh Beverly, we Beverly yeah.
Anngelle Wood:We talked about that kind of briefly, where you know there's a vast amount of people who are. You know this is a cover-up, this is the Canton cover-up and I know that there's all these associated podcasts streaming things popping up about. Let's jump on board the Canton train. We know happens, we saw, I saw it with every single crime. You know big crime case that happened with the Delphi murders. It happened with when Gabby Petito went. So many other cases I don't know.
Anngelle Wood:People jump on board. It's interesting to see somebody being outspoken about her guilt. Let's talk a little bit about that, because I'm going to declare again. I don't really know where I stand on this.
Dubs:Is it possible? She didn't do it?
Anngelle Wood:Yes, is it possible? She did do it. Sure, I just have to wait for them to paint the full picture for me. And I didn't watch any of the trial today. I watched. Oh, nothing today. First day I watched Yesterday. I watched some Today's were taping on Wednesday. There was nothing going on today.
Dubs:They were not in session today.
Anngelle Wood:Let me back up. There is a man who is dead, who has a family that misses him. The O'Keeffe family has had an enormous amount of heartbreak. They have lost a sister, died, left her two children. Then a few months later her husband died, leave these two children. The O'Keeffe family figures out. How are we going to take care of these kids? John O'Keeffe, the man who is dead, takes guardianship of these children and becomes their substitute father. Yeah, so there's got to be some goodness in this man. There's got to be some goodness in this family. Right, he's dating Karen Reed. From all of the accounts that I've heard to date, she was pretty good for the kids. The kids liked her, the family liked her, everybody liked her.
Anngelle Wood:January, snowy January night in New England. It gets cold. Snow comes down in a heavy clip. It's one of those nights they're out partying for whatever reason. She wants to go home. He wants to go to the party. She supposedly drives him to this party in Canton and then what the fuck happened? She thinks that by what we've seen so far, she believes she dropped him off left. He didn't come home First thing in the morning, like like before sunrise, she goes back to the house and they find john o'keefe in the snow with what appear to be bite marks on him. No blood, do I have that right?
Dubs:there was a little bit of blood underneath him when they, when the paramedics, came and moved him. But head wounds bleed. I mean, you know, I know everyone knows head wounds bleed hard and I mean, of course, the cold could have been a factor. It was very cold out that night, I believe from what I've read of the weather reports, it was like 18 degrees outside. It's going to aid clotting. I mean, if you're laying out in the snow with a head wound, you're not, it's, it's going to help it clot. It's not going to gush. So it's seriously.
Dubs:It depends on what side of this you're listening to, on what day you're listening to it. Yeah, because every single factor of this could go one way or the other. It's massively irritating to the way that my mind works, which is thinking up every possible scenario and then weighing in my mind okay, what is the probability of A? Okay, higher, all right, and then B is more probable. But how? You know if it's possible? Sure, all of these things are possible. She could have hit him. He could have been beaten inside the house. A plow could have hit him. It could have been unrelated to everybody. Any of these things are possible. But what is the most probable thing that happened and that's. But this is a nightmare for that kind of analytical thinking because there's no. Okay, well, this is more probable because xyz, but this is equally probable because of abc, and the more you think about it, the more tied up in knots you get. It's crazy.
Anngelle Wood:And it's just this vast abyss of conspiracy. Because if you want to believe that the cops involved the town cops and the state cops if you want to believe that they were dirty in this cops, if you want to believe that they were dirty in this, you're going to find some evidence that supports your own theory?
Dubs:Yep, but not just dirty, they could just be inept. Yeah, I mean, it could just be a simple case of drop the ball or complete ineptitude, coupled with maybe a little bit of bias towards the defendant or towards the victim, and voila, it's not a conspiracy, it's just an asshole who can't do his job correctly.
Anngelle Wood:The state cop Michael Proctor who had shared some, I'll say, pretty ridiculous texts with some people about Karen Reed. Yeah, basically the tone as I received it was like fuck this bitch was kind of the tone that I was getting from the text that proctor was sending around yeah, I have like the um, I had heard that he called her the c-bomb and wasn't there another text that said I hope she kills herself.
Anngelle Wood:yeah, yeah, I don't know that we're ever really I don't know how long this trial is proposed to last Six to eight weeks, which is going to be. We're going to be so tired. The jury's going to be so tired of all this. I think they already are.
Dubs:I mean listening to the prosecutor and his opening argument. I think he put them to sleep on day one. I mean we've all seen movies. We know what they're supposed to sound like. I've sat in court more times than I'd like to admit, but that was for law school, not as a defendant.
Anngelle Wood:But I've seen some opening arguments that are engaging and I've seen some opening arguments that are dry and boring. Boring, and his takes the cake on the dry and boring. Jeffrey Curley is a little boy from Cambridge, Massachusetts who was kidnapped by men from his own neighborhood and molested and murdered and thrown in a river in Maine. It's a horrible, horrible story. People ask me about it.
Dubs:I don't like talking about that one it hurts.
Anngelle Wood:It's really, really difficult because you have a little boy who this beautiful, trusting little boy just riding around his neighborhood and these guys were not strangers to him or the neighborhood. They're in prison and they want desperately to get out. I hope they never see the light of day Ever, ever, ever, ever see the light of day.
Dubs:But, Giannetti.
Anngelle Wood:When he was a prosecutor all those many years ago I don't recall the date but I'm going to say 95 or maybe even sooner, or maybe even earlier than that he was a big part, like he was phenomenal as a prosecutor. So she does have that ball in her court. She has a pretty in terms of defense attorneys, I'm sure he's going to be a pretty great one.
Dubs:I mean listening to him speak already. Just the way he comes off impassioned, is engaging, just no matter what. He could be lying his ass off and he's, he's.
Anngelle Wood:He's got you hook, line and sinker while he's doing it I mean all this really is, at the end of the day, who said it best? I mean, yes, you, you have to be factual yep, based on the information that you gather and the discovery. But what it comes down to is what kind of show you give that jury and the individual members of that jury and how they internalize the information that they're given. We know that it's all on the prosecution. The defense just has to, has to just plant a little bit of doubt and it's all up to the prosecution to be like oh no, she did this, she ran him over and left him there because they had a fight in aruba. They're gonna have to do better than that. They're going to have to do better than say they weren't getting along and she was flirting. They were flirting with other people. That's not grounds for murder, I'm sorry. It's just not grounds for murder.
Dubs:No, I'm actually surprised the motion to exclude that evidence, the Aruba trip, the hearsay evidence that came with that, that was a close thing Because I mean as boring as the prosecutor Adam Lally's opening statement was on day one of trial he's not a very strong speaker, I've noticed from watching him in court, but he knows his stuff so he was able to get up there and very easily tie these events in aruba to the night in question, without doubt.
Dubs:So that motion was was denied because they can't keep that out, because it is not remote, because the fight they were having in aruba was down to Karen's jealousy of any other woman in the vicinity of John O'Keefe. She had a hard time. I mean, we all get jealous. It doesn't make her a killer, but it does go to state of mind and I think that the fact that they were able to keep it in, but the fact that they were able to keep it in, the fact that they were able to draw that connection between a night a month earlier and the night of his death, it was masterfully done. So I don't think anyone should really write him off too early. But I think I'm losing that argument with a lot of folks that I talk to on a daily basis, my best friend included. It sucks.
Anngelle Wood:It's going to be a long haul and I don't really know if I have the stuff to watch it every single day. I did sit through quite a bit of the Harmony Montgomery trial against her POS biological father, who was convicted of her murder.
Anngelle Wood:That was hard, and it was. It's certainly very different. Long-term abuse and subsequent murder of a child is hard for any of us to take. This is very different, but it's just so. It's become such fodder. Can you imagine what it's like in those coffee shop conversations in these these towns? I mean, I live in a little town too. You live in a little town. I think Canton's probably bigger than both of our towns together.
Dubs:Yeah, I don't really remember when they're beginning of this madness and I'm like wow, your police department is huge, holy crap. Like their town is more spread out than mine or your. I don't know where you're from, but I mean, the town I live in has been the subject of of your podcast more than once actually.
Anngelle Wood:Yeah, and you know what? That keeps coming up, by the way.
Dubs:I'm so surprised once you start talking about it, it's not going to go away.
Anngelle Wood:Somebody reached out to me and said somebody that was part of the investigation wants to talk, and I'm thinking I didn't want to spend all this.
Anngelle Wood:I mean, you and I are going to talk about a missing child from that area and we're still going to do that, and there are other unsolved cases in that area that we're going to talk about, but this Daniel LaPlante case keeps coming back to me and I had absolutely no intention on spending that kind of time on that. What I think, what I believe, was a serial killer in the making. I believe that daniel laplante was on his way to being a very he was a very disturbed individual proven because he's in prison for his crimes.
Anngelle Wood:But it's bananas that that case keeps coming back. But we're, we're, we have other things to talk about in that region. But yeah, somebody that was investigating that case wants to talk. I'm like, okay, okay, let me think about it. I don't know, I'm too, I'm busy right now. I can't really dig into that rabbit hole.
Dubs:But it's everywhere, Angel, it's everywhere. I was in Townsend a couple of weeks ago, the day that I dropped in on the chief of police. I had a day off from work and I was just like hey bud ready to talk. He was not, Um, so I just kinda kinda drove around looking for something to do and I love the antique shops in West Townsend so I went and I started talking to a guy who runs the shop on the second floor and he was one of the auxiliary police officers who assisted in apprehending Danny LaPlante. Wow, and he told me about he was present when they found him at that dumpster at the Moore Lumberyard in Ayr. Wow, he was there. And I'm like how is this case still hanging over this town? It's insanity, he's everywhere, like this black cloud that just hangs over the whole area. You can't escape it. It's a legacy and it's terrible and family members still live there.
Dubs:From what I'm told, yeah, his family still lives in the same house that they lived in when he was murdering people yeah, I did actually a little little tour um that same day of um what would have been debbie quimby's bike route, and you passed his house on one of the potential routes because he lived on the film street.
Anngelle Wood:I did that drive and then I went up Saunders.
Dubs:Oh, you went up there. I don't take kindly to people going up that street. I did you notice? The house is right across the street from the mouth of Saunders. Yes it is.
Anngelle Wood:Bananas. The blue house is right there at the entry. You take it, you turn, depending on what direction you're coming from, left or right. Her house is right there. That blue house, the Saunders house, which was the Gustafson's home where the family was killed, was the same for decades. Yeah, Whomever owns it now is completely changing the look of that house.
Dubs:They should. It just kind of puts more of this to rest. You know, it takes what is probably a somewhat macabre tourist attraction in town and just sort of says, well, we're reclaiming this, we're taking it back.
Anngelle Wood:Yeah, I did. I was there, for I know what we were doing. We do a lot of real estate drive-bys oh cool, and we were looking at houses that were for sale. We do that a lot, love that. Whether we're intending on, you know if we're seriously thinking about buying the house or not. We go and we look at real estate a lot to see what your money gets you in these different towns.
Dubs:That's why we're there. You get a little more bang for your buck up here. I know I love the state of Boston, but it's a long commute.
Anngelle Wood:Yeah, we're pretty remote. I think we probably answered this question already, but what do you suspect is going to happen? How do you?
Dubs:think this is actually going to shake out, boy, as it stands right this second, like how do you, what's your, what's your gut with what you?
Anngelle Wood:because I'll tell you what I think. What does your gut tell you right now, based on the things that you've known previous to this and just what you've seen play out in just two days of court?
Dubs:oh I I, based on what I've seen in the last two days in court, I I think she'll be acquitted. I'm very interested to see what happens when the experts come in. I want to know because, I mean, the prosecution has an expert from Celebrate who wrote the extraction software that says this 227 Google search did not happen. And then the defense has this very revered data expert named Rich Green who says yes, it did so I want to know who comes off more believable on the stand For my money. The guy who wrote the program is the preeminent expert in the program and interpreting the data that comes out of it. So, honestly, I think that they'll have a pretty tough time making the jury understand what actually happened with that Google search. So that, I think, is what it hinges on for a lot of people.
Anngelle Wood:In the Google search you're referring to is how long does it take someone to die of hypothermia or whatever? The language is how long to die in the cold, and what's the discrepancy there was one report says that it was very early, like middle of the night, and the next one there's one report that says it was once karen showed up and realized that he was dead or dying, said how long does it take, or something there was an order from karen to look it up.
Dubs:Yep, so the okay. There's one search that supposedly occurred at 2 27 in the morning, the, the night of, well, the very early in the morning of January 29th, and that was stored differently. Like I don't know how far into the minutiae you want to go here, but like essentially in layman's terms, because I don't know any other way because I'm not a data expert but essentially the search that occurred or did not occur at 227 was searched in a temporary file, so it's called WAL, it's right ahead log storage. So that's what happens If you Google something, hit search and go oh shit, no, and close it real fast or shut your phone down.
Dubs:The other search that happened at like 6 23 or and 6 24 in the morning, those were served, those were stored in the, the long-term safari log, like the database storage essentially. So there's a hard record of it, but there's no hard record of 227. So the battle here is whether it actually occurred or didn't at 227 in the morning and if it did, if it truly did happen at 227 in the morning. Jen mccabe has a lot of explaining to do, like a lot, because that to me, spending a year going back and forth she's guilty, she's innocent, she's guilty, she's innocent.
Anngelle Wood:That has been a major sticking point, because you can't go all the way, one way with something huge like that sticking in your mind and I think you're right, it's going to be a matter of, I mean, certainly there's a lot that's going to play out between now and the six to eight week journey that we're all going to be on together. For those people who are paying any kind of attention to the John O'Keefe murder trial that's going on, it's going to be interesting to see how it works for the jury. I mean, we've seen this a lot with DNA science. So many citizens have that CSI effect, right? Yes, they think they understand how all of that science works when it comes to crime and homicide, but it's not like it is on television.
Anngelle Wood:And I know that this comes up a lot in trials like this, that it's difficult to try to put these things into terms where you're facing a jury of your peers. Right, it's supposed to be just like everyday people, your neighborhood, but everyday people in your neighborhood don't understand things to the same, the same way. So when we talk about this technology, about, well, you know it's stored one way, this way, and it's stored one way this way. It's a matter of who can tell their story the best to make it palatable for the jury to figure out and internalize, and then you know, when they go to deliberate, how much of that becomes a part of it. I think you're right. I think that that that's one of the things. Certainly we have a long way to go, but that's one of the things that's going to come up. So, what is it? Was it 2 am, middle of the night, or was it after 5 am when Karen was like, oh my God, no, no, no, no, no. What happened?
Dubs:Where is he? He's never not come home. Where is he? And I think another I mean at least from where I sit as somebody again who's been following this for a long time again, who's been following this for a long time um, karen's multiple accounts of what happened are very problematic. Probably will go down in her mind is the worst night of her life. No, I mean there's a certain amount of shock, there's a certain amount of desperation and despair involved with losing somebody you care about very deeply, regardless of how you lost that person. But I mean, at the outset she's saying I dropped him off and I drove away, I don't know. And then on dateline she says I dropped him off and I watched him go in the house and then I drove away where did?
Dubs:that that come from? We don't know. We have her arraignment where David Dianetti says this was just a tragic accident, she'd been drinking and it just. And I mean they are sowing those reasonable doubt seeds. But if you watch her, if you listen to her talk, you're like wait, which is it, karen? Which is it? Did you see him go in? Do you? Not even one account? She doesn't even remember leaving the bar.
Anngelle Wood:She doesn't remember leaving the bar, she was driving a car.
Dubs:With a bunch of cops. That's also a big problem for me too. I mean you're out with a whole bunch of police officers, whether they're local, boston state, whatever. I mean law enforcement is big in that group. She was supposedly trashed off. What now the prosecution is saying is nine drinks. She is teeny.
Anngelle Wood:So nine drinks in this tiny woman and you're gonna let her get behind the wheel of a car that poses so many questions for me because I mean, I'm gonna remind everybody through the course of this whole thing is I haven't been following this very closely. I will tell you I've been following it very closely. That's why we're talking. So people are probably like yeah, but angel, what about this? What about that? I'm gonna tell you I haven't been following it very closely and I envy that what?
Anngelle Wood:what in the world? Clearly, she's been interviewed a number of times. I would have to, I would have to guess, clearly every. Well, I would say everybody in that house was. But that's not the case, is it?
Dubs:No, not at the outset. That's also a very large, large problem, because the initial police report about this had a list of people in the house and most of their names were spelled incorrectly or they were left off the list entirely. I mean, colin Albert wasn't on the list, interesting yep. And then we have body cam footage of karen in the police department when she was arrested, saying colin albert and brian albert beat the shit out of him and left him for dead and I was like why are you blaming child Like that to me has always rung very, very false.
Dubs:Like I'm sorry, I just don't buy it with with Colin Albert, I don't see it and I don't like it. That's where I left it. That's where I got off the Karen Reed train a little bit and said okay, I'm not, I'm not comfortable with this. I'm going to just step back and reevaluate everything that I know to be factual and just ignore all the noise and everything that I know that happened, that we know from evidence or from multiple witness accounts. That's what I'm taking into account and the witness accounts that I've heard are that Colin left the house. He wasn't there. So why are you blaming a child for this? I mean, just leave him alone.
Anngelle Wood:they ruined his life there's a lot of ruin here. So the home in Canton where John O'Keefe was found, that family no longer lives there, correct, they no longer have their family pet. The pet thing is a little. That's questionable to me, because I have dogs Yep, me too. I couldn't for the life of me deal with relinquishing my pet to somebody else. And again, I don't know the ins and outs of that family's history, like I don't know very much about their case, I don't know very much about their living situation.
Anngelle Wood:I try to think this way. This is how I try to operate. When I see someone who's surrendering their dog because I don't know what their family situation is, they could have some financial breakdown, they could have, you know, a massive change in their world, they could have a illness, divorce, I don't know. I just so I try to withhold that judgment. Somebody is dead. It's a little bit more difficult to withhold the judgment when it comes to well, there's a dead man in the yard, something happens. But then when you try to suspend your disbelief, it becomes very difficult because you've had all of this chaos surrounding this case. I call it like the pig pen effect, right? Remember the?
Anngelle Wood:kid on the peanuts that you see this kid he just has like this cloud of dirt around him like that pig pen and and I also call people who are like really toxic and messed up, like oh, that's a, that's a pig pen of like bad energy. But there's there's so many questions about that family and they moved out of the house and they no longer have the dog, and why not? And you know what happened with john o'keefe and karen reed and they were bar hopping, which everybody does, that but then if they were supposedly chug-a-lug and booze they're driving, I mean, is that why she gave him a ride to the party? She didn't want to go to the party. He did want to go to the party.
Dubs:He did want to go to the party. He was out drinking with friends at CF McCarthy's before she met him there and they moved over to the waterfall with the Alberts and Brian Higgins. He had had a friend pick him up, so he didn't have a car downtown, so I don't know if the plan was for her to meet him. I've heard conflicting things about that. Either his friend was going to drive him home or he was going with Karen, but either way he was not driving that night.
Anngelle Wood:And we are led to believe that she had a bunch of drinks. She may or may not remember the events of that night. Like you have said, her story has changed a few times and stress could bring that on. I mean, I'm trying to be, I'm trying to offer some compassion for everybody involved, because there is a dead man that affects a great many people, including the two children that he became responsible for, who suffered a great deal of loss, and I think about them all the time and how this plays out for them. There is a possibility that she is not responsible for this, so she, she's mourning, she is in the fight of her life.
Dubs:She has become an unwitting celebrity of this strange notoriety that she has been allegations of conspiracy between her and Aiden Carney to put certain information out there into the public and withhold other pieces of information that maybe don't paint her in the best light. I cannot speak to that best light.
Anngelle Wood:I cannot speak to that, but it's worth mentioning that those allegations exist. We really don't have any way to know if this will happen or not, but do you suspect that Karen Reid will take the stand in this?
Dubs:trial? No, I don't think she will. The way that she conducts herself in court is this the persona she's trying to put forward? Is this strong, silent, almost sort of put upon? I'm the victim, sort of thing, and I truly think that that cannot be preserved. I don't think that she would do a very good job on her own behalf on the stand.
Anngelle Wood:Well, if she has a hard time controlling her facial expressions, she may not be grace under pressure on the stand. I would be surprised. I mean, knowing what, really knowing what we know about defendants who have taken the stand, it doesn't bode very well for them. We've seen it a number of times. It does not bode very well for them. And I don't know that she's I mean, she gets accused of a lot of things but I don't know that she's this you know straight up narcissist that feels like she can take the stand and like snow everybody and just come out completely blind.
Dubs:I do think that they are still underestimating the prosecutor. I don't know much about his track record, but he's been doing the job for quite some time and I know. I know that he can't have lost every case he's worked on. I know he does have a strategy here and I think that if she does take the stand it would be because they are massively underestimating Adam Lally. But then again, he does trip over his words a lot. So who knows? I mean you're watching these people on court tv in the background rolling their eyes whenever adam lally talks and you're just like okay, before this you you make coffee for a living, like you don't know what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to the law, like I have your
Anngelle Wood:lane dude I saw this line on on the internet, everything is a conspiracy if you don't know how anything works I like that.
Dubs:Going back to the case, though, I mean you have to. You have to think about how far reaching this conspiracy would actually have to be in order for everything that these people are saying to be true. You're involving the district attorney. You're involving the us attorney. You're involving the fbi. The fbi really is going to get involved in a in the frame job of some nobody from Massachusetts, like who cares. No, I think it was a simple case of ineptitude on the part of Michael Proctor, and I think that she hit him by accident. I think that she was drunk and ragey and she backed into him and then drove away and blacked out and forgot about it. I think that's what happened, because that is Murphy's law, or Occam's what happened? Because that is Murphy's law or Occam's razor, sorry, not Murphy's law.
Anngelle Wood:What do you make of all of these? I mean again, because I don't know. I haven't spent any time researching. I know like top level shit. It was a snowy day in January and I know it's very cold and there was this accident or not accident, and she's Karen Reed and he's John O'Keefe and he was a cop and she wasn't, and the people in the house were. You know, I don't have a deep understanding of it to connect the dots. So that's why I'm sort of playing catch up with the the case as it rolls out day to day, but I can't invest that. I can't really invest that kind of time in this because of all the things you just said. Yeah, it's important that somebody died, probably by accident, I don't know. Was there this big Canton slash state police slash Boston? Because the other? Let me clarify that the person's house that it happened at was also a Boston cop, right. Yes, not a Canton cop, a Boston cop Right.
Dubs:His brother is a Canton cop. He is a Boston cop, he is a Boston cop.
Anngelle Wood:So the relationship between the two Boston cops, what has the conversation been about those two?
Dubs:Whose house it was at Brian.
Dubs:Albert, the homeowner, and John O'Keefe, the victim, just a courteous hey how you doing once in a while. And they weren't friends. They didn't know each other. John was neighbors with Brian's brother, chris, so they knew each other, and there's some discrepancy as to whether there was bad blood between John and Chris, and thereby Colin, who is Chris's son, or whether they were friendly. I've heard from one side of the fence that they were very good friends, and then I've heard from another side of the fence that there was terrible bad blood and grudges between the two. So who do you believe?
Anngelle Wood:So, and that leads me to the next question, you know I saw a testimony of family members in the first couple of days and the testimony was that they liked Karen and they were friendly and they were hoping that if with the sister-in-law, the sister-in-law said you know, karen said I, you know, if anything happens between John and I, I hope we can still be friends. How do the family members feel about Karen Reed today?
Dubs:That's a weird thing too, because to hear them tell it on the stand, they at the time, the day of, were just as confused as everyone else. They weren't pointing fingers because they didn't know what happened. They treated Karen the same as they had always treated her. Can I come over and see the kids? Of course you can, but now I think that there is a definite, definite problem between the Reed family and the Oakey family. I've seen with my own two eyes some tension brewing between John's brother Paul and Karen's brother Nathan. So, given the situation, can you really blame that tension?
Anngelle Wood:at all, and because everything's been spun up in the media, they haven't been able to properly mourn.
Dubs:Nobody has, and that's the biggest tragedy out of all of this is John lost his life and nobody who was close to him, cared about him, loved him, was able to properly grieve his passing because of this sensationalism surrounding Karen's case. I think my biggest problem with this is that when people talk about it in the vernacular now it's called the Karen Reed case. It is not the Karen Reed case. She is not the victim. Yeah, john O'Keefe case. He is the victim and his name should be the one that is synonymous with this, because you should be worried more about getting justice for him, whatever that looks like and whoever's to blame.
Anngelle Wood:And I do. I will say this to piggyback what you just said If Karen Reed did not do this, she needs justice as well.
Dubs:If she's innocent.
Anngelle Wood:I hope for justice for her too. I simply can't know.
Dubs:I mean, if she is innocent, can you imagine, can you imagine going through all of this as somebody who has done nothing wrong? But on the other side of the coin, look at all the other people whose lives have not only been affected but been tarnished forever because of this. I mean Jen McCabe whether she will something or not, she is a mother, she is a citizen of this town who has been vilified over this, when she may or may not have done anything wrong. Chris albert there's conflicting reports about who actually owns the pizza shop, but there have been rumors that he's going to have to shut down. He's lost a business because of this.
Dubs:Colin albert had to drop out of college because he was. He's so distraught about being accused of murder, you know, but like I don't know, these people could be guilty of, you know, luring john o'keefe into this house and murdering him horribly for whatever reason. To me, I mean I know when you, when you're looking at a case like this, motive is should, should be the last thing that is considered, means an opportunity, or always first, you know, but motive to me is important, like if this occurred by accident, if Karen hit him by accident. That to me. So is it up? That's closure. It was an accident. They were having a fight. She was drunk. It was an accident. But if he walked into that house and these people surprised him and beat him to death, why? That's what I want to know. If that is what happened and I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just saying you know know, they have to prove it and tell me why.
Dubs:Right, like is this these rumors of bad blood or someone was drinking in someone else's house? Like all of these rumors, rumors, speculation like that doesn't fly to me.
Anngelle Wood:I need a reason no, the rumors and speculation are not going to bring justice to these people, to John O'Keefe, who's dead, and you know I'll say it again, if Karen Reid is innocent, she needs to. She needs to get that justice, of course. But, oh my God, it's going. It's a lot. It's been a long messed up road and we're, we've got a we.
Dubs:We got a long couple of months left I've heard some rumors that there are bombshells on the defense side. That quote uh, you could never find her guilty after hearing these things. Now, okay, you've said that before and I'm still on the fence, so show me something. And to me I have a hard time saying oh yeah, she's a hundred percent guilty without seeing proof. I want proof, I want evidence. I want blood in the basement or I want, you know, his blood on the undercarriage of the car, or want video or something. I want a piece of evidence to tell me who did this, because people can lie. You can get 10 people to lie. You cannot get Ring Video to lie. You can't get Ring Video to lie.
Anngelle Wood:Is that the claim? Is the claim that he never stepped foot in the door?
Dubs:Yep, the claim by the folks inside the house is that he they never saw him get out of the car and he never came in the house.
Anngelle Wood:That they didn't even know. He was on the premises until the next morning when she came looking for him looking for him.
Dubs:Yeah, I mean there was. There were a couple of folks that testified that they saw her car out front when she pulled up, but they never saw him get out and she just drove away. But the their story has changed Also. I mean, some people's original statement to the police was that they saw her do a three point turn and and leave the way she came and there's no tire tracks to point to that. So they revised their story to say, oh no, she just drove off and it's like I don't, can you just fucking tell the truth and then we can decide based on what actually happened, like is why is truth serum illegal? Can we just do that please? It's been a hard time still following with all the changing stories and all of it.
Anngelle Wood:It's, it's a headache I just think about backing out and I don't know. I never drive fast enough when I'm backing out, definitely not in a snowstorm, no, to have enough velocity to kill somebody, even accidentally. The impact that I, I would imagine it. You would need to hurt someone to the point that they could fall over, be knocked unconscious, bleed right because he had abrasions. He had a lot of abrasions. I'm just thinking about just basic wheel spinning leverage in the snow kind of situation like is it possible, drunk or not, for her to have hit him with such impact to get the result that we have? He got knocked out. He suffers from hypothermia because his body temperature drops rapidly through the course of those hours. However many finds him, they haven't. We haven't gotten to the point in the trial where they determine we haven't talked to the medical examiners yet.
Anngelle Wood:So that will be revealed yeah, that that's going to be a very interesting reveal and and maybe we're gonna have to set a date to revisit and and then like maybe next week we can we, we can, if you, if you want to maybe next week we can kind of go over what we've learned, because I really think that again I'm going to I'm going to say this again for people who are listening. I don't know very much about this case. For those of you who listen to crime of the truest kind I'm. Usually I fall so far into the rabbit hole. I'm like in the center of earth researching stuff, or at least I try to. I have not done that with this case because I simply did not want to fall into this media circus that it has been.
Anngelle Wood:The heart of everything that I do is about the victim. I pride myself. I've learned this over the course of of the years I've been doing this. I want to be victim-centered and this is about John O'Keefe losing his life. Something happened that night. Will we ever really conclusively find out what happened that night? I don't know. I really didn't want to be a part of that toxic pig pen of craziness on the internet. You know, I suspend my disbelief a little bit when I when I listen to some of this because I just I don't have the level of knowledge of the case, but I will say that it'll be very, very interesting for me, and I'm sure you and a lot of other people who have been following this case to any degree, when the medical examiner gets on the stand and starts describing the condition of John O'Keefe.
Anngelle Wood:I don't know the science of it. I don't know how easy it is to determine time of death when somebody's been laying out in probably sub-zero temperatures at that point in January in Massachusetts.
Dubs:They have ways of doing the math that can give you a pretty strong estimate of what the actual. You know how long he was sitting out there Because, don't forget, he was not deceased. When he was found, he was not dead. He was still clinging. There was no heartbeat, but they were able to get him. They were able to get a pulse on the way to Good Samaritan Hospital. He was pronounced dead after he arrived at the hospital, but he was not, for all intents and purposes, formally declared deceased until like eight in the morning. There's a little time there.
Dubs:I am very interested to hear what the medical examiner has to say about the abrasions on his arm, because even listening to one of the emts testify the other day, it was strange because he claimed these injuries were on the upper part of his arm. But you look at the autopsy photos and it's clearly is his forearm. So which is it? Is your memory wrong or, you know, maybe, like maybe, they were injuries that are not visible on the photos that people have been sharing and, by the way, that's disgusting. First of all and foremost, you should not be able to find someone's autopsy photos on the internet did they get leaked by someone on the internet?
Dubs:yeah, yeah, you can find them like without a problem. And you know the argument is those are dog bites and scratches. And you know, on the other side of the camp it's no, that's from the jagged taillight when he was hit, and or the scratches from the undercarriage of her car or something that he hit while he was rolling across the lot like you. Just don't know. But to hear the medical examiner talk about what these cuts or scrapes or lacerations or whatever the hell like, to hear this person actually define these injuries in real terms, I think will put a lot of that to bed.
Anngelle Wood:I completely agree with you. And then I have the question floating around my head like has there been any conversation about maybe they existed before january 29th and what they would have been from?
Dubs:I think the fact is that the shirt that he had on, the long sleeve shirt that he had on, also had those cuts in it. So it was um. I guess it's been determined that they happened at the time. But the big question mark to me is that head injury. I want to know where it came from. That is a very specific type of head injury you know well, like how does that happen? From a car? I really don't know. I mean, I can see how it would happen from someone smacking them upside the head with something. Sure, yes, but not from a car.
Anngelle Wood:It would have to be a very specific hit from a car yeah, I mean, and also back to what I just said a minute ago, could that driver, karen re Reed, or any driver in this, in this situation, could they have gotten built up enough speed for impact to knock him back so he would bust his head open? So many questions will we ever know? Will we ever know? I don't think the O'Keeffe family. They have to be running that whole cycle of emotions, anger and disbelief, and grief and sorrow, and more anger, and, you know, wanting to shut out the world, and then, at the same time, they don't get to truly, really mourn their kid kids because they also lost a daughter. They have these little orphan children who are now, you know, not adults but close to adult.
Dubs:Yeah, they're teenagers now and it's devastating. I mean, can you imagine what that must be like to lose your parents and then finally gain this sense of normalcy after years of mourning your parents, only to have then your surrogate father taken from you and a woman that you maybe saw as sort of a mother figure or at least a comforting presence? By all accounts, she was wonderful with those kids.
Anngelle Wood:She was, and I think they loved her too.
Dubs:Of parents, I mean, regardless of whether she did this or not, these kids are suffering the most. I can't imagine what it must be like to be Peggy O'Keeffe John's mother. I mean, you see her face in every frame of this court footage from the other day during these opening statements. You just watch her face because Adam Lyle is talking for 10 seconds and she just burst into tears. It's awful.
Anngelle Wood:They're part of a club that nobody wants to be a part of you, they have a dead kid and they have no answers. It's awful and it's daughter for everything. You know what has happened with all of these. I mean, I see it, I see all the true crime or crimey people you know doing their play, their play, their daily play by play, and hey, great, great for you if you've got all this time. But it's just, it's so hard to watch because it becomes their, their story becomes, I mean it's not theirs anymore.
Anngelle Wood:O'Keefe's, and you're right when you say the John O'Keefe murder trial. It's not the Karen Reed case. Yeah, she's on trial. She's the defendant, but he's the one that isn't here anymore. He's the victim.
Dubs:His name should be the one said most.
Anngelle Wood:Yeah Well, I'll check in with you next week and we'll see what happens with the trial. Yeah.
Dubs:I want to see some media testimony. I want to find some facts here. Give me some bombshells.
Anngelle Wood:Well, thanks, awesome, you know what's happening. She's going to fill us in. Well, I'll talk to you soon. Thank you so much you got it.
Anngelle Wood:Thank you, dubs. We true crime folks have a way of connecting with each other, finding one another. All of the information that we have talked about throughout the course of this episode available at Crime of the Truest Kind on the show page on the website, also in the show notes for whatever streaming platform you listen to the show. Frito, my pug, is upstairs barking and there's absolutely nothing I'm going to do about it. You can find out more about Dubs Dubs the Bloodhound on Substack, dubs the Bloodhound on YouTube, the True Crime Bloodhound on Apple Podcasts. And, yes, I plan to check in with Dubs next week to get an update on what's going on in the John O'Keefe murder trial. Thank you for listening. My name is Angela Wood. This is Crime of the Truest Kind Massachusetts and New England crime stories and a little bit of history and some snark, because, after all, I am a mass hole and, to anybody who's listening from outside of New England, we really are good people. Follow the show at Crime of the Truest Kind Instagram, tiktok, twitter, facebook. Please leave a five-star rating and review. You can listen virtually anywhere Apple, spotify, goodpods. The show is up on YouTube. Become a Patreon patron Four tiers starting at just $1. Thank you to all the solid gold, wicked, cool superstars, including Rhiannon, lisa McColgan, my superstar, eps Devin, pam K V, brandt Brandy and then Devil Dog Dominique Mark, rebecca, thank you for being here.
Anngelle Wood:April Monthly Mini I know I'm a little late. It is about the four frozen fetuses found in a refrigerator. I'm doing that on purpose In South Boston and the update on that story. It's kind of bananas. Thank you for being here. Cannot thank you enough. More live shows to come, take care of yourself, take care of each other and lock your goddamn doors. We'll be you next time.
