Justice For Sandra Birchmore, Stoughton, Massachusetts | Part Two with Susanne Cleveland

Episode 70 | This week is a bonus! The show will continue on a biweekly release schedule. This is a special episode continuing my conversation with Susanne Cleveland of Justice for Sandra Birchmore. There is a lot that needs to be said and there is much more to come in the weeks ahead for her case and the man who has been arrested and charged in her murder.

Subjects discussed include sexual abuse, coercive control, self harm, homicide, police misconduct. Sometimes I swear. Listen with care.

Sandra Birchmore's short life was filled with loss and disappointment, but she seemed to take it in stride, looking at the brightside, and was forging her own path in spite of it all. She was finding success on her terms. She was hired to work for the Sharon School System as a teaching aid, she was preparing the process of going to nursing school, had recently moved into her very own apartment in Canton and, what pleased her the most, she was expecting a baby.

All those plans were haulted when a man, a man she had looked up to for much of her life, made a plan to end it. And he almost got away with it.

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Justice for Sandra Birchmore Facebook Group

The tragic death of Sandra Birchmore has jolted a town and exposed alarming misconduct within the Stoughton Police Department. Advocate Susanne Cleveland joins me again (please listen to part one) to scrutinize the internal investigation that revealed appalling actions by former officers Matthew Farwell, William Farwell, and Robert C. Devine. Their crimes, including statutory rape by at least one of them, have spurred efforts to decertify them and fueled a wrongful death lawsuit led by Sandra’s family. This episode unpacks the systemic issues in law enforcement and the crucial role public outcry plays in driving accountability and reform.

This episode explores the broader implications for protecting individuals from predatory behavior within law enforcement. We reflect on the ongoing battle for legislative change, the importance of creating safe spaces for survivors, and the public’s frustration with law enforcement’s mishandling of critical cases.

Don't miss the next live show, featuring North Shore Crime Cases and an engaging Q&A session on Thursday, Oct 10 at Off Cabot in Beverly, Mass.
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Chapters

• 0:00 Police Misconduct and Wrongful Death
• 12:55 Community Supervillain Scandal
• 23:28 Exposing the Explorer Program Abuses
• 38:08 Seeking Justice for Sandra Birchmore
• 44:53 Uncovering the Planning of a Murder
• 49:12 Failure of Justice and Investigation
• 1:00:26 Healing and Justice for Sandra Birchmore
• 1:12:35 Live Show Announcement and Crime Trivia

Transcript

Anngelle Wood: 0:00

Well, hello, my name is Anngelle Wood and this is Crime of the Chewest Kind. Consider this a bonus episode. First episode back of the new season. It was extra long. This is a very layered case. There is a lot going on and has been for quite some time. This show will continue on a bi-weekly schedule.

Anngelle Wood: 0:42

Live show Thursday, October 10th at Off Cabot in Beverly, massachusetts. Come out if you can. There will be more live shows to come. Thank you to our Patreon supporters. New this week Meryl and Solid Gold. Kate M, our superstar EP, lisa McColgan Happy birthday.

Anngelle Wood: 1:00

I have a monthly mini on the way for September Real life Jaws,. If you will. You can support the show. Four tiers starting at $1. Patreoncom slash crime of the truest kind. I appreciate each and every show of support, whether it's just following, sharing something online. Everything makes a big difference. Five-star review on Apple Podcasts. It's a one-woman operation here, my friends. This is episode 70.

Anngelle Wood: 1:35

I continue my conversation with Susanne Cleveland, an advocate and part of the Justice for Sandra Birch Moore Facebook group. It is a movement. They have been working hard to keep her case in the public eye. Episode 70, hunker down with me.

Anngelle Wood: 1:54

In Stoughton, Massachusetts, an internal investigation is conducted within the Stoughton Police Department beginning in 2021, shortly after the death of Sandra Birchmore. The findings were released in a 60-page report in September of 2022 that found three Stoughton officers had acted improperly. That found three Stoughton officers had acted improperly. Language in the report included things like failing to demonstrate attention and devotion to duty, incompetence, failure to demonstrate sound judgment, all behaviors considered unbecoming of a police officer sworn to serve and protect. Upon release of the report, stoughton Police Chief Donna McNamara said the information was deeply troubling as a human being and a police chief. Named were former cops Matthew Farwell, william Farwell and Robert C Devine.

Anngelle Wood: 3:00

Now Devine you will hear, also had a sex and lie scandal probably some videotape too where he was framing a woman he had had a sexual relationship with while he was married to somebody else. This goes back to 2015. He was accusing this woman of harassment when he was actually the harasser. He orchestrated all sorts of things to create phone calls and emails and messages, etc. To suggest that this woman was targeting he and his wife, when the whole time it was him. He was found out, but somehow he still managed to get his job back. What Sergeant McNamara called for upon the release of this report, referring to them as unfit to serve, and asked that the state's new Peace Officer Standards and Training Commission decertify them, which would bar them from working as police officers ever again. The Post Commission is a new board to oversee officers at each one of the state's 431 law enforcement agencies, identify and investigate corruption and to decertify officers found guilty of misconduct ranging from all sorts of things, including, but not limited to, sexual misconduct of nearly 9,000 officers in person by July 1, a deadline established under the 2020 law as part of a new recertification process. In addition to the Stoughton Police Department, abington Police Department confirmed it was aware of alleged misconduct by one of its officers. That officer, you will find out, is Joshua Heal. After the release of this internal investigation, on December 29, 2022, sandra's family or the Birchmore estate filed a wrongful death lawsuit, alleging wrongful death, negligence, negligent supervision, negligent retention, pain and suffering and emotional distress, stating the years of grooming of Sandra, beginning when she was part of the Explorers program. Now Matthew Farwell is being held and charged with Sandra's death, among other things, and, as far as I can tell, william Farwell and Robert C Devine are both continuing the post-commission hearings, all of whom have been decertified, and, as I understand it, devine in particular is fighting his decertification. It has everything to do with his pension. I continue my conversation with Suzanne Cleveland when I tell you we spoke for about seven hours about Sandra Birchmore's story. That is no exaggeration.

Anngelle Wood: 6:24

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Susanne Cleveland: 7:02

In this case, we now know that he admitted to probably the worst of the worst already. I mean, it's documented, it's up on massgov that he committed statutory rape. Still nobody did anything about that. We'll circle back to that, but that was as a gesture to take energy and attention away from committing murder.

Anngelle Wood: 7:26

It's documented that he effectively resigned when this internal investigation was taking place. He clearly had no other choice but to leave the Stoughton Police Department.

Susanne Cleveland: 7:39

Yes, and the only move is to raise holy hell by way of a civil trial. More power to them for doing that. We wouldn't be here with this broad, sweeping motility happening right now. We wouldn't be here if not for that, obviously, the FBI had a hand in that. Public outcry, attention and pushback on. Hey, we're not just writing this young woman's life off. We're not going quietly into that good night and just saying oh, you know, women get emotional Sometimes. They just impulsively decide that it's over, in spite of all this insurmountable evidence that that monster did this to her.

Anngelle Wood: 8:23

Let's talk about that evidence. Let's talk about what ultimately led us to where we are today. It was the medical examiner ruled that it was a suicide, with OK. So surprise everyone I'm not a doctor Given the affidavit when they break down pretty basic findings in that report about how Sandra was found, detailing the way she was sitting, the pressure, the way her necklace was broken, just this sort of play-by-play that the doctor goes through in evaluating the information post-autopsy through the medical examiner's office.

Anngelle Wood: 9:11

Norfolk County, right, yes, Norfolk County Anybody worth their weight could have determined the fact that she would not have rested that way, that she would not have rested that way, that there was an impression of the strap that she was staged. We know he tried to stage it to look like she took her own life. He failed Because he doesn't even know how physics works and the state of the body and how her weight would fall and how things would actually appear if it was a legitimate suicide, as this person was banking on happening that. He would just sky through this and no one would ever bat an eye or ask another question about his involvement.

Susanne Cleveland: 10:00

he didn't have to be good at it, he had his, he had fanning and he had it's a, it's a pretty lengthy list of troopers and officers and that's. That's a whole other episode. But in and out of that apartment hopefully we'll find out during the course of this, this ongoing case, who maybe raised their hand and said hey, you know what I'm not, I don't really think that that's how that happened. And then we'll find out who among them, including, but not limited to, John Fanning said no, this is how we're going to do this. You know, this is how this is going to play out. Thanks for showing up, but why don't you go outside and guard the parking lot while we do our real police work? So, going back to Fanning saying you know, Matthew Farrell is not a real detective, he couldn't pull off something like that. Well, what the fuck are you Fanning?

Anngelle Wood: 10:53

The evidence shows who is actually doing police work?

Susanne Cleveland: 10:57

Who actually is? Or is it a network of cover up and throwing away women's lives and chalking them up to being what too crazy to exist or too inhumane to be, or too much of an asset or resource to these disgusting men to have any semblance of freedom and proper life?

Anngelle Wood: 11:28

for his life.

Anngelle Wood: 11:28

It's astounding to me that when I read through the second half, the part two, of the affidavit was far worse, because that's when you really get to the heart of what was going on really in the mind and heart of Matthew Farwell when he was abusing this woman and he had decided that she was an inconvenience because she wanted to have this baby and he didn't want anything to do with it at that point because she was asking things of him, he was forcing her into things for years and then tables were turning for him and the aspect of him feeling like she had any leverage in the relationship sorry, not a relationship in their association I corrected myself because their interactions.

Anngelle Wood: 12:11

It wasn't ever a relationship. Let's call it what it is. He did not like to feel like he was losing any quote-unquote power or control in this association that they had been having for all of these years. And I'm going to say it this motherfucker couldn't handle it All of the damage that he had done to this young woman throughout the course of her adolescence into her early adult life. He didn't like it, so he made the decision that he was going to choose for her.

Susanne Cleveland: 12:43

I would argue, and it's heartbreaking to say, but that decision was made. I was going through my vast pile of notes and looking for things that stood out in terms of timeline. When Sandra was sort of craving for this belonging and going into these programs and was sort of bebopping into this after-school activity for the Explorer program, she was interacting with Matthew Farwell. She was 12 years old when she got a friend request from Matthew Farwell to spend time together. Beyond a seemingly innocuous thing from somebody that you admire and look up to and want to be like.

Anngelle Wood: 13:26

That's where the decision was made.

Susanne Cleveland: 13:28

This launch of social media being an initiative to create more community interactions and belonging. I'm going to go ahead and say that was a Robert Devine joint. Devine was the one who spearheaded all of the we'll just not only will we include everybody and make you all family, but we're going to use social media to make it even easier and quicker and more readily available 24-7. We're going to be there for you 24-7. That's what that looks like. And that is definitely able to be corroborated.

Anngelle Wood: 14:02

if you want to go in the wayback machine, he was brought in to grow the program and to sort of beef it up. Wasn't that part of his role or what his intent was?

Susanne Cleveland: 14:15

He was responsible for the Explorers program for quite some time, yes, and then later on, as it started to overlap with Sander getting involved with activities in the Explorer program, there was a stint that Robert Devine was on leave for a bit, for some controversy that he went through and was demoted.

Susanne Cleveland: 14:49

He was ordered to really make the Explorer program launch into the stratosphere and become bigger and better than what it was. I don't know if I would regard it as sort of his penance for coming back and, you know, being demoted to patrol, but whatever it was, whatever the assignment was, to me it was sort of the launch of a supervillain. He's come back. He was able to at least save, rescue his career and get back in there, not as the second most powerful person in the department, but as a patrolman, and his gift in that was that he was going to take these public-facing community initiatives and make them bigger and better and take over the community. With regard to the explorers, it made it so that everybody in the community felt that they could bring their children there more and more.

Anngelle Wood: 15:42

Divines, did you call it controversy? Something happened with him. Was it marriage related?

Susanne Cleveland: 15:48

He had a relationship sort of spiral into a controversy that involved this is an adult woman, so I think it's okay to say an affair in that regard. At least there's that it was an adult, consensual person that got into this messy relationship and breakup. And Devine and his wife at some point or another both took out harassment protection orders on the I guess we could say bereaved former mistress. The third party, yes, the third party. Yes, the non-cooperative thrown away woman. Don't want to speak for her either, but it all falls in the category of throw away women. So this controversy erupted. It got very ugly and it turned out that the protective order in the ensuing arrest of this woman was actually an elaborate lie Robert Devine set her up?

Anngelle Wood: 16:46

Did they try to make?

Susanne Cleveland: 16:48

her look like a crazy bitch, suzanne, they've got a script for it. They've got it all laid out. See, here's the thing Make somebody look like a crazy bitch or actually escalatively turn them into one by sheer terror and by making a mess out of their whole life. I mean, imagine you go through this messy breakup and you've got a guy in power who's saying, like listen, if you're not just going to go off quietly, I'm going to make your life a living hell. And he did. I call that a tyrant.

Susanne Cleveland: 17:16

However, it came to be that everybody ended up knowing about it.

Susanne Cleveland: 17:19

Suddenly you've got the whole community and the weight of local and state law enforcement all involved because instead of backing down and saying, ok, you know what, we're going to go ahead and adios the protective order and actually give this woman a break and we're going to move on with our lives.

Susanne Cleveland: 17:37

He had her arrested, put her in jail and then the IA report speaks to it a little bit better than I can because it's very lengthy, but basically people went into her apartment I don't know who the people were Took her tech. She came back from jail and reported that her place had been broken into and robbed and they said oh, no, no, no, that was just us investigating, and that was all in a batshit crazy bananas effort to try and contort her tech usage as being in a harassing manner, trying to frame her for things that he was being terrorized, and then his wife was being harassed and terrorized too. Turns out it was not true, but in the midst of that crazy-making experience she went to jail, had her life turned upside down and had the weight of local and state law enforcement on her ass. That had to have been terrifying.

Anngelle Wood: 18:49

She had to pay a pretty big price for getting involved with this man.

Susanne Cleveland: 18:52

Others have spoken with her and nobody has permission to again, so I wouldn't think to do that. But she changed her name, moved, lost her job, you know, basically had to restart her life and but in the town, you know, there was some some backlash and people asking questions and saying what are you going to do about this? This is out of control? And the outcome was really well. You know it was a tough situation, got a little messy there, but it's really a private matter. So we're going to go ahead and bring him back in, bring him back down to patrolmen and we're all going to go back to normal. That's what the outcome was. Who in the world knows why? Because there was so much damage done and he was cited as being an untruthful law enforcement professional. That was the outcome of his report, but I guess they didn't flinch at that. So they brought him back in. They brought him back in and then gave him the Explorer program to beef up and do better.

Anngelle Wood: 19:52

That was his task to build this, make this more successful.

Susanne Cleveland: 19:57

Yeah, I'm sure among many things, but in my, I guess, my point of view or my perspective that that's where the supervillain sort of hatched is okay, I'm back here, but grudgingly, as a patrolman and not the second in power, and now I'm in charge of the community and everybody's children.

Anngelle Wood: 20:19

Is it documented? Did he participate in sexual abuse of a?

Susanne Cleveland: 20:25

child. There's certainly reported documentation from from a later time period, when when sandra was an adult, and we'll leave that there because allegedly this is somebody who works as an attorney he left law enforcement and segued, went to law school and now works as a defense attorney, right. I guess, retired and is contesting decertification to retain pension. And he is a lawyer. I find it interesting If it wasn't known before I've made it known that he swore into the bar on February 2nd 2021.

Anngelle Wood: 21:07

The day after Sandra Birchmore was killed.

Susanne Cleveland: 21:13

The day after and two days before found. I don't know what to do with that piece of information. I'm just going to go ahead and leave it there. Day after she was killed. That's when he swore in yeah.

Anngelle Wood: 21:28

Is there a fourth player in this that has been implicated being involved in Sandra's case?

Susanne Cleveland: 21:41

Certainly, josh Heal has been a very big conversation piece. Yes, it is documented and admitted to that he engaged in misconduct with her. His is very his is specific and limited to his stint as an animal control officer. The fallout of them investigating his interactions with her, which involves being in the animal control office and usage of the animal control space while on duty to engage in sexually inappropriate activity, that was a big deal and got him in a lot of trouble. He seems to have cooperated immensely and provided investigative material in order to save his ass, I guess would be the right way to say it.

Susanne Cleveland: 22:18

I don't really want to let anybody off the hook for behaving inappropriately with a person who was clearly, even if not a child, struggling immensely and going through abuse and confusion and exploitation by his buddies and somehow being invited to exchange in some I don't know the right way to say it. They were aware of each other's activities and he was aware of the extent of their activities and Sandra trusted him and confided in him to actually express some of the horrors that Matthew Farwell was putting her through and instead of saying you know what? Hey, hold the phone. Sounds like you're going through a rough time, kid. Maybe we should get you some support and help. That asshole decided that he would trade a cat for her to perform a sex act. I can't really let him off the hook for that, even though you know, investigatively he became less valuable at a certain point and he's off of the civil lawsuit Is he still participating as a law enforcement entity in some way?

Susanne Cleveland: 23:28

Not really sure about that. He didn't get decertified when he moved from animal control to go join the police force in Abington. He became an Abington police officer. They didn't really enjoy the look of his, the outcome of his internal investigation, so they let him go. So he's. He left that job. But that doesn't mean that he's decertified. It doesn't mean that he can't, you know, reinvent himself in another obscure place with another backstory, because they don't. If you cooperate to a certain degree, they don't just take away your ability to be a cop. The only thing I can't conclusively say what Abington police decided, but they certainly decided that he wasn't a good look.

Anngelle Wood: 24:18

I'm on this page crimetimelinescom.

Susanne Cleveland: 24:22

Crime Timelines did an amazing job and it continues to add to that timeline in a very prolific and accurate manner. Nothing's perfect, I'm sure that I'm not nailing it, but yes, it's very comprehensive and it is as close to the piles of information that I have around, damn near memorizing because it seems important.

Anngelle Wood: 24:45

It's incredible and I've only spent a small amount of time going through here, but there is the apartment complex video surveillance where Matthew Farwell is seen entering and exiting. There's information about the first autopsy report, the second autopsy report by Dr Bodden, the third autopsy report by Dr Smock, her death certificate. It's incredibly thorough, an incredible amount of work and research and resources that are available to people to get a real idea or a real understanding of what's gone on.

Susanne Cleveland: 25:23

Well, yeah, I mean in case anybody is puzzled, in case anybody doesn't get it yet, in case anybody is confused, it's a really good resource. It's also a good resource to understand the problematic nature of a program such as Explorers. Not that everyone is like this, angela. I'm losing grasp on what this sort of larger law enforcement nationwide chiefs of police of America, that organization, whatever the acronym is, I can't grasp it, but they have terminology and language that addresses the fact that they acknowledge that law enforcement in and of itself provides an opportunity for coercion and sexual misconduct to exist at a level that they don't have a grasp on. You couple that with the fact that the Explorer Program adds yet another opportunity for coercive control and sexual misconduct.

Anngelle Wood: 26:21

But with children. The Explorer program was a nationwide program. Is that correct?

Susanne Cleveland: 26:28

It is. It might be a worldwide program, but I think whatever the version of it that exists here is an offshoot, I would say an abomination, of Boy Scouts of America, Boy Scouts of America. Abomination of Boy Scouts of America, Boy Scouts of America, like the Catholic Church, already it was, already had its scars, already had its marks on it. So the Explorers was born out of that program, More of a more as a publicity. Change the look, change the change the language. Clean it up, let's. Let's make it into something different, so that nobody gets hung up on the stigma of the Boy Scout title. But that doesn't mean that they necessarily changed how it operates.

Anngelle Wood: 27:10

It seems like on the surface. You know that goodwill gesture, right, that political thing. You know cops are shaking hands and kissing babies and all of the happy thoughts that people want to believe goes on in the inner workings of police forces. But over the last number of years we've been able to pull that curtain aside to see some of the inner workings and it is very grim.

Susanne Cleveland: 27:31

Well, and I mean and it should be, you know, to your point a safe space and a positive community atmosphere and a way to bring adults and children, you know, together in a healthy, constructive way. But it requires oversight and management and regulation and rules like you don't roll around one-on-one in a car with nobody else around, something that is repeatedly violated. There are aspects of it that, if unchecked, obviously run amok. That again, that's a whole other episode. Going over other example cases of explorer programs in other states and regions that have gone nightmarishly awry. And we have those examples.

Susanne Cleveland: 28:16

But yet still here we are thinking everything's fine here, right, the child's not saying anything because they're really responsible for their own well-being. Right, going back to you saying this arrested development with Sandra and without wildly speculating if the relationship with these men began at that onset at 12 years old, that's where the decision was made, that's where development was no longer possible as a thriving young woman enjoying life and going through the normal hiccups and growing pains that adolescents should. And it's devastating to think that she didn't get to. I don't want to just throw this in there because it was one of those holy shit moments when I was reading the affidavit that she didn't go to her prom because she was catering.

Anngelle Wood: 29:09

She was making herself available to this predator.

Susanne Cleveland: 29:13

Yes, that's one of those devastating details. That is just very difficult.

Anngelle Wood: 29:18

This is an honest feeling that and this is not in any way shape or form blaming Sandra for anything that happened to other young women had had in those that period in their life.

Susanne Cleveland: 29:48

But that doesn't mean that she didn't give it her level best.

Susanne Cleveland: 29:51

I mean there was so much try and effort and tenacity when you think about everything that she did with her way too short life and the amount of energy that she put into getting her education and in various jobs. She was a very hard-working, very smart girl who was constantly trying to better herself and was very caring to other people and involved in other involved in self-defense classes. You know, loved animals. She did have. She did have something of a life outside of this, of course she did.

Susanne Cleveland: 30:29

But imagine being somebody who works that hard and is and is plugging along trying to get, get an education, showing up for a school, I imagine, probably early 7.30, 8 in the morning and giving love and energy and care to the students and everybody around her, as well as studying on almost no sleep. Because after eight hours, nine hours of work and then taking classes and trying to take care of yourself when you've got a growing baby or you're just sort of grasping the reality of that situation, you're being kept awake and terrorized by a man and or men who want something from you.

Anngelle Wood: 31:13

They wanted her to be available at their beck and call.

Susanne Cleveland: 31:16

Having read the reports you know they went to great pains to show the pattern and the succession of this communication and the demand. It's really unspeakable. But think about that. You picture the daytime, the loving, the smiling, the happy, caring there for everybody, sandra, and having to switch gears into this nightmare that didn't seem like a nightmare to her.

Anngelle Wood: 31:43

Yeah, I see her as having actually an incredible level of success, given the emotional rollercoaster, some of the emotional things that she experienced. You know she lost loved ones in a rapid succession, three people that were really, really important to her. Yet she was working for the Sharon School District, Clearly a very successful job, a very respectable job. She was a teacher's assistant. She had her own apartment. She had recently, within a few months time, moved into the Canton apartment on her own. She was living there by herself. She was doing quite well and she was planning if she had not started nursing school yet, she was in the stages of whatever the prep was to get into nursing school. She had plans.

Susanne Cleveland: 32:35

She had hopes and dreams. She was working hard towards them and was trying to carve out her place in the world by having a family after having lost those closest to her and thinking you know, this is it's in the language that she uses. It's tough to go back to those messages because I see a lot of that communication being in a headspace of possibly trauma and it doesn't exist as actualized trauma because she didn't get an opportunity to figure that out and address it and heal and move on from this ongoing abuse because it never stopped, there wasn't any break from it. It working against, I guess we could say mental and emotional. What's the name of the person with the rock Prometheus?

Susanne Cleveland: 33:23

I always get that one wrong. You know pushing that uphill and getting, not just getting through the day-to-day, but you know being a functional person and being a caretaker and being devoted to your friends, being devoted to the children in your classroom. It's not like she was sleepwalking through life. She was giving it all the try imaginable and also trying to get help. You know seeing somebody and there is this sort of really delicate process of sussing out with somebody who's going through what Sandra was going through. You can't just, you know, go into a therapy session and say, hey, we're going to get you out of this. You have to get somebody to a part of some type of safety or feeling that they're valuable enough to ask for help. And we had those forces working against that with her constantly.

Susanne Cleveland: 34:21

And despite that you think you're going to be free, you think you're able to do what you want. You think you're going to get one up on me. Well, guess what? No, you're not.

Anngelle Wood: 34:31

And despite that, how her life ended is the saddest part of all, of course, but despite all of these challenges, she was doing remarkably well outside of that very traumatic association she had with these men she was. I hope that she knew that she was doing well. I hope that she was proud and recognized that. I know that she was in therapy. I know that she was being treated with. She was on medication I don't remember what she was using.

Susanne Cleveland: 35:02

Oh, it was Sertraline. It's an antidepressant. I can speak from experience on this so I can say it safely. It's one that is probably deemed the most safe by an OBGYN. So if you're on a maintenance plan for keeping yourself in check and you're in care, it's just you know, I call it putting that proverbial raincoat over the puddle so you can get over type of medication.

Susanne Cleveland: 35:30

So that demonstrated an effort to be well and stay well, and particularly for the new life that was developing. You saw that in the reports. She was trying. She was taking care of herself, doing better, cutting coffee, changing her diet, very dedicated to making sure that this baby was healthy and and that everything was going to be okay. And in that due process, maybe getting a little stronger, maybe getting a little bit more self-assured to say you know what, maybe I can be okay without this asshole. Yeah, maybe, maybe you can do this or that, or you know, watch me on FaceTime open gifts with your child. That you're. That you won't acknowledge. But she was choosing to do it on her own and was trying to find a way to do it.

Anngelle Wood: 36:16

I would like to think that had she been able to do that, because of the shifting emotion she would have had with that child and it's tragic to say this because it's what will never be that baby that she wanted so very much that she would have been able to get new or renewed strength to move on in her life, away from this trauma and this abuse that she had.

Susanne Cleveland: 36:48

Sometimes that's how that happens is through motherhood. Is that again, speaking from personal experience, when my daughter came into the world and I was recovering from an unsafe situation, everything changed, Everything shifted. This purpose, this other little person that you live for and with, brings you new meaning and strength that you never knew, you imagined. Now Sandra felt this meaning and purpose and love and rejuvenation very early on, which tells me that it was really powerful. Not everybody is in touch with their maternal energy that early on. She wanted it and everybody knew. I mean, as far as her friends and family and loved ones who speak of her, they knew that it mattered to her and that she was trying to make a go of it and that she was very happy about having a baby.

Susanne Cleveland: 37:45

They were pushing back on these law enforcement agents pushing back on that. Wait, no, there's no way that she could have died by suicide. She wanted to be here. She wanted this baby. Can you guys maybe I don't know look under the hood a little bit more, maybe check out a few more things? No, no, no, Just bitches, just be like that. Nothing, they didn't even flinch. It breaks my heart to think that it just gets thrown under that. The rug of basically making it her fault that her life ended the way that it did.

Anngelle Wood: 38:18

That she is somehow responsible for that, that she is somehow responsible for that, and to speak to her having the baby and wanting very much to be a mother, and the emotional reward and all of the things that would have come from it for her how she was going to explain who fathered the baby, whereas the father. She must have been planning some sort of own way to explain to people.

Susanne Cleveland: 38:42

To the point of those who were in her life. They were willing to embrace and support her. It did, which just adds to the devastation.

Anngelle Wood: 38:46

And they knew of this relationship for quite a while.

Susanne Cleveland: 38:50

Some knew I can't speak for them. I mean, you see it in some of the conversations that are documented that they know of the relationship and that they were maybe uneasy about the logistics of it, but there wasn't anything that pointed towards anyone being unsupportive. Everybody wanted what Sandra wanted. They wanted her to be safe and happy and healthy. And you know, damn it, if this is how it's going to be, then we're going to love you and this baby. There's a way to exist with that reality. There's a way to exist with that that reality. There's a way to exist and when you, when your family or when your friends or your loved ones, and you know, okay, it's, it's an unusual, it's a, it's an unconventional situation, but this is about sander birchmorne or baby. This isn't about like, we'll work, we'll figure out a way to work around you you know the origin story.

Susanne Cleveland: 39:41

You, at least, are supposed to get to have the origin story of your own. You know, separate from the nightmare, but that dichotomy of her being happy and being energetic and hardworking. No one could have known the depth of what was going on with this man, these men, because that's part of the process, that's part of grooming and gaslighting and isolation and the torment of causing somebody like Sandra Birchmore to sort of be at their behest and figure out a way to lead this dual life where you do all the things, don't let anybody know, you push it, you know, you keep it a secret and you're obligated to. I mean, the very definition of coercive control when it comes to physical relationships of this ilk is that there's a threatening and intimidation and a process that goes on, that desensitizes to the horror that you're experiencing, so that when you're outwardly facing with everybody else you don't talk about it. It normalizes it and it's part of it, and early on.

Susanne Cleveland: 40:53

Compartmentalize as well.

Susanne Cleveland: 40:55

Compartmentalize, yes, which is scary, but to add to that you're dealing with somebody with a gun, you're dealing with somebody who is in control the safety and protection of the community.

Susanne Cleveland: 41:08

What could be more isolating than that is that if you do decide, hey, you know what, this doesn't feel safe to me. I want to get out of this Then the person you call is that guy. How do we cope with that reality? How do we cope with the fact that already is already enough, that that Sandra Birchmore lost her life to this nightmare, but that there could still be other victims who who need to be brought to safety from the fallout of their situations because, at the very least, they're still alive to do so, and that's something that needs to be embraced and I guess we could say fortified a safety net, put around everybody to say, okay, we know, we know what's going on and it's okay to come forward and talk about it, because you've been through a lot of these, these case studies, so you know about the history of the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts and the reality, the stark reality, is they're processing trauma and actually telling a story doesn't come from many, many years.

Anngelle Wood: 42:13

Legislative advocacy is so very important because you know really, as I've learned, the average age of someone who has experienced sexual abuse or, you know, child sexual abuse in this case is 50s 50 years of age, and the statute of limitations is usually for a lot of these folks closed, which is so incredibly unfair.

Susanne Cleveland: 42:35

Well, and that's that, and that's if you're alive, and that's if you haven't succumbed to years, years of substance abuse or you know whatever other coping mechanisms are used to to get through something like a normal life. There are a lot of variables to it, but but she's, you know, unfortunately Sandra's not even here to have that option, but those who would have been in her time frame and in this program and under the care I can't say care of these men would be my daughter's age.

Susanne Cleveland: 43:08

You know would be, you know, in their late 20s, early, I guess, late 20s, early 30s. If you're talking about the span of this program under these men, of this program under these men, I would find it hard to believe that of the 300 that Robert Devine espouses to have gone through his program, that she's the only. We obviously know about Sandra's story and we know of one other story that was told that was a sort of near miss, that this person struggles with tremendous survivor's guilt about, you know, having a close call of this ilk. Those are only two stories out of the 300.

Anngelle Wood: 43:48

A couple of things You're incredibly compassionate and empathetic about, not just this case but so many others, because we've had conversations. You are a driving force behind justice for Sandra Birchmore and I'm curious what your other conversations are like with other creators. Do they want to be as focused on Sandra and the person that she was and the things that she had accomplished?

Susanne Cleveland: 44:14

I would answer it two ways. You know, some of those things, some of the nitty gritty, some of the details we sort of, we sort of have to address because otherwise the conversation is just one big parenthetical insert and it's, you know, there's no comprehension. So there's an extent of it that we need to know in order to get the magnitude and the gravity of the situation. But then there's a kind of hard stop about dwelling on or staying in the nightmare fuel aspect of it, and the nightmare fuel aspect of it also lends itself to questioning what Sandra could have done differently.

Susanne Cleveland: 44:53

And I'm going to spell this out hard and fast right now and say that if anybody has that question, they really need to think about the fact that in any of these situations where somebody whose life was destroyed, taken down and inevitably ended, who suffered that kind of egregious abuse, the only one who's to blame and in this case the only ones to blame are the predatorial, abusive motherfuckers that did it, not somebody who didn't understand how the process works, not a parent who is struggling with their own division of effort and actually thinking that their child was safe.

Susanne Cleveland: 45:32

That's not valuable to entertain that topic. But what I'm finding is that the other creators have been pretty open to learning about the terminology about grooming, coercive control and like how did we get here? And let's talk about how to get these guys and let's help the public understand. And yeah, there's going to be some crime story in there. There's going to be some of that who's who and was it Fanning and compared to Proctor, and you're going to have that because it's the only way to keep the attention in the room, but there is definitely a willingness to learn and understand so that we're having going forward.

Anngelle Wood: 46:13

I do think about reading these documents and I do think about how this trial is going to play out. You know, the fact of the matter is it's all laid out for us Matthew Farwell. He was planning this in such a way that is so despicable. He asked Sandra for a key to her apartment.

Susanne Cleveland: 46:44

They did discuss it at the onset of her getting the apartment and he said basically no, screw, that, it's your thing, it's not mine. I don't want that. I don't want the possibility of getting caught. So he dismissed it no, I'm all set. I'll let you know when I need something from you.

Anngelle Wood: 47:01

We're in control again. What stood out to me among all of these very egregious things, as you have so eloquently laid out for us, is the premeditation in the code to the door of the apartment. He wanted the general code. To be absolutely frank, I didn't know there was a difference between a general code and a personal residence code. He did not want sandra's personal code, he wanted the general code so he could somehow cover his ass that they'd never the traceability they'd never traceability.

Susanne Cleveland: 47:42

These guys know about intricacies of these types of keypad programs and the. What do you call that? The law enforcement one? The Avaglon system? Yes, or to know where somebody is at any given time to understand crimes being committed, but using it to kill a young pregnant woman who is, for whatever reason that we'll never understand, completely loyal and trusting and thinks that you want to be there for her.

Anngelle Wood: 48:23

She thought he was coming around for her. She thought he was coming around and meanwhile he was just casing her place and figuring out how he could try to make this the quote unquote perfect murder, because that's really what he was hoping for.

Susanne Cleveland: 48:36

It's beyond betrayal. I don't know, I don't know if there's a betrayal time it's evil.

Anngelle Wood: 48:40

Quite frankly, it's evil to me.

Susanne Cleveland: 48:43

Yeah, there aren't really enough synonyms for evil that fit in this scenario, but if there were a million more synonyms for evil, I would give it to the guys who dismissively wrote this case off as just another suicidal, deceased, crazy, messy, pregnant young woman. How dare they, honestly, how dare they honestly, how dare they? Yes, and at this point, the public, of course. We feel the way that we feel because we're embedded in this case. You know our loved ones, family supporters, people from the community who have been out there with signs saying wait, what happened to our poor girl? You know, there's, there's, we have that. But now the general public is starting to go. I'm sorry, what the actual fuck were you guys doing in conjunction with arriving to the scene? And you're what?

Susanne Cleveland: 49:39

Yes, and when you think about the fact that the investigators and I don't want to create dividing lines between those who are complicit because they're simply don't know what's going on and because, like I said, you know, with the crime scene where the guy in charge comes in, he's already on the phone, with the DA's office, already spinning the wheels and says go guard the hallway. You know, to the guys who were first on scene, I don't know how to suss out. You know which ones are, the ones who are just okay. Well, we really can't buck up against the administration or the powers that be, because we don't want to be lose our jobs or be retaliated against or put through some type of threat or just are clueless. Perhaps there is an element of ineptitude and cluelessness, but I don't want to let any of you off the hook. If any of you were nearby, adjacent to or even marginally thought differently about how that scene played out, there's got to be a devotion to duty to expose that and to put this to an end, including the two other bad guys that are still very much out there. That's very unsettling to me that they're still out there.

Susanne Cleveland: 50:57

Anybody who is close enough to I mean okay, so we've got Matthew Farwell. That's a start. I believe it was Sandra's cousin who said in an interview with Channel 10 News said that the arc of justice is finally starting to curve towards or slant towards, sandra, and it was just such a poetic way to say it. It's a beautiful thing to say and there was more to it. I just don't want to get it, I don't want to bungle it. That arc of justice leaning towards? Okay, but we're not done by a mile, because anybody who even bungled part of it and allowed this to continue for 3.5 years. Y'all need to check yourselves and figure your shit out real quick.

Anngelle Wood: 51:39

We think that the Karen Reed case. So we had a mistrial and I called that. Unfortunately, I saw that coming Anybody who's listened to the show and anything that I've said about Karen Reed. I never got involved in the case as deeply as so many other people did. I wanted to see the right thing happen. I don't know what the answer is. I don't know if we're ever going to find out really what happened to John.

Susanne Cleveland: 52:20

O'Keefe on that night. Givings are about the Karen Reid trial or that situation. Whether guilty or innocent, whatever your opinion is, it's more important to know how egregiously they fucked up that investigation and how much they betrayed both of both parties all parties involved because of the fact that they didn't do their job. So, whether she did or didn't, it's relevant. Of course it's relevant, but that's why we have a justice system so that you actually do the work, so that you build the case, so that you get the bad guy or girl and you make it right.

Anngelle Wood: 52:56

I should be able to prove it. We should be able to prove it one way or the other.

Susanne Cleveland: 53:00

Yes, you should be able to prove it. And now here we have, in stark contrast to that in Sandra Birchmore's case, an absurd amount of evidence pointing towards a litany of terrible criminal behavior in this case and ultimately her murder. And they still didn't do their jobs.

Anngelle Wood: 53:23

I made reference to the Reed trial to say you thought that was huge. I can see this case far well and if other people are implicated, whether they're arrested.

Anngelle Wood: 53:44

Whether they're charged, whether they're tried, whether they're convicted, isn't up for us to say yet. I mean, time will certainly tell. But I do believe that this case will be and I'm not saying this gleefully, it is a murder. It's a young woman who was the victim of abuse at the hands of police officers for years. And because people's interest we're human beings, the general nature of our curiosity when it comes to things like this it will be very big and I really hope, if we haven't learned anything, we begin to learn something. As the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, we have no control over what happens anywhere else, in any other state in the country, but we really have to look at what's happening in Massachusetts in the offices of the attorneys general and law enforcement. It starts at the top, comes all the way down.

Susanne Cleveland: 54:46

We really need to find out Well and to your point about we have the Commonwealth to deal with. Well, apparently we couldn't. And we didn't because the FBI and Josh Levy had to step in and say, okay, y'all move aside, because you're done fucked up, like you just said. And not only that, like you could see it, I realized that it's it's not my purview to speak towards, you know, law enforcement on that level. But you could see it in his face the the level of anguish about how egregiously they offensively dropped the ball in pursuing Matthew Farwell at the very least. And he, you could see it in his face. We're not quite done yet, we still have a lot more to do here. But he can't speak to that because you can only speak with what you have concretely dropping in that indictment. And man did he drop it with a sonic boom, including flashbangs, in order to get him out of his dump truck, which is I don't think I've ever experienced that in watching a case like this unfold in my time in Massachusetts, have you?

Anngelle Wood: 55:58

seen something like that. I cannot say that I have, and to see how that played out like that is a bit terrifying. The case has warranted that. It's terrible to see how that played out like that is a bit terrifying. The case has warranted that. It's terrible that it took that long.

Susanne Cleveland: 56:11

In other cases where we didn't quite have the knowledge that we did. When you see the bells and whistles of the SWAT team and all that you know, all that insanity unfold, you think. Is it over the top? Was that for show? Was that for optics? In this case, you understand what a horror of a human being he really was. He's still alive, he is, but the level of danger and the level of planning that they had to incur in order to safely apprehend him. So Josh Levy was very clear about the fact that it was relatively new to them for them to come in as they did, but they still had to pick the day, had to pick the environment, had to, in broad daylight in a crowded parking lot, orchestrate an arrest like that because of how dangerous this man was. I'll say he's not as dangerous because he's in a cage right now.

Anngelle Wood: 57:06

They had to be privy to information about the likelihood of this guy opening fire.

Susanne Cleveland: 57:13

There doesn't seem to be any limit. I say it in this hyperbolic way, all the king's horses and all the king's men, because of how dramatic that was and it's harrowing to see that it had to go down like that. But you know how it wouldn't have had to go down like that Is you did your fucking jobs in the first place at that moment, at that time.

Anngelle Wood: 57:34

When did the internal investigation? I don't. It's in front of me but I don't know.

Susanne Cleveland: 57:37

The internal investigation dropped September 2022. That's when it was announced that they had exacted out the problem that led to Sandra Birchmore's suicide.

Anngelle Wood: 57:50

He's responsible for what she did to herself.

Susanne Cleveland: 57:53

Wrong he did it to her. So we're still in the realm of the power of the Karen Reid case. We're still back in that wheelhouse of the framing, blaming and shaming of women, and that is a huge problem. So framing one woman okay, at least she's alive, has a team to fight for herself, and as well as she should. That's what everybody has a right to do. But this goes to the point of framing for being responsible for her own death. Again, just framing, blaming, shaming of women. It seems to be the mantra of this DA's office at least, and certainly these law enforcement professionals associated with this case, because not one has set apart and said hey, wait a minute, guys, this doesn't look right. They had a loved one say what about this necklace? They had a loved one say what about this necklace? And they're like huh, I mean, it's just, it's messy here, the cats are running around, it's what you know. She went crazy.

Anngelle Wood: 59:02

So disconcerting to know that this has been, as you say, three and a half years of hoping, waiting, anticipating. Will it happen? And here we are. I mean we've got a long way to go and I really want to know this is an honest question to anybody who are the people who are serving and protecting? Serving and protecting because we're not getting a very good. It's not a good look.

Susanne Cleveland: 59:26

We're not having you're not fostering a lot of faith and trust. Well, I do want to address that because this obviously is coming up a lot recently. But these quote unquote men did what they did and pulled the wool over the eyes of an entire community. I would argue that they abused the entire community. Although our focus is on what they did to Santa Birchmore and her baby, they still took advantage of and abused and betrayed the safety and trust of their entire community in doing so. The collateral damage and the ripple effect and the we could just call it trauma of everybody who is adjacent to her story or wants to feel safe where they live and feel safe sending their children to local programs I mean, we don't have this one anymore, but that's a lot. That's a lot for everybody to process.

Susanne Cleveland: 1:00:26

I did ask this question of a town official recently what are you doing to help your community heal, or what are you doing to assure your community and the parents and the children within it? Now, it's not that it's not important how you're assuring the legacy and the honor of Santa Birchmore's life to her family. Of course it is. But what about everybody else? What are you doing to shore up this obviously broken system in your town, because how could it not be? And that's a really big question that couldn't be answered. I'll just leave that there. But I also broached the question of so you have the rest of the law enforcement agency, who is the ones who are honorable and wanted to do the right thing and actually couldn't prevent this from happening, and are maybe suffering through.

Susanne Cleveland: 1:01:21

I don't know what the version of survivor's guilt is exactly with law enforcement officials, but it's kind of a separate issue.

Susanne Cleveland: 1:01:28

But the dissension in the ranks and that unsettled feeling amongst them can't be good for their mental health. No, how do they feel safe to actually go about the business of protecting and serving if these guys are still there looking over their shoulder, facing whether or not to confront about their misdeeds and facing either eminent danger or retaliation or discipline by their superiors because you can't do that and get it wrong? It's important to know that you can't do it and get it wrong, and you maybe can't do it because somebody is stopping you from doing so, but still have to try and protect and serve under terrifying circumstances. That can't be good for the safety of the officers involved and it's going to take a lot of I think I feel like someone else should know this better than I would a lot of work and effort and intervention from outside professionals, maybe other agencies, maybe some kind of psychological support to bring these officers back so that they can heal and protect and serve. I don't know the fear of, I don't even know what the fear looks like.

Anngelle Wood: 1:02:40

There's so many implications for me we can look at you know, the last several years about police misconduct and defunding and all of these things. I want to call the police in my local neighborhood and I want them to help me and I want to feel like they want to help me. This happened with Stoughton Police Department, because this is all on their watch and I don't know if they have done this, but they should have come out with a statement and a plan to counter this horrible, unlawful, illegal, felonious, embarrassing situation that happens with a plan in place saying this is what we're going to do. We're going to get mental health, we're going to address this head-on, we're going to say no more.

Susanne Cleveland: 1:03:34

I don't know that they've ever done that, aside from this situation with these three, um, their three brothers awful as it is to have to say it in that context, they were part of this force together. That can't be easy to overcome, and I mean our job as civilians in trying to heal and encourage justice for Santa Bertramore doesn't concern with them getting better, but it should be for their chief, it should be for town managers to figure out how to fix their, their broken police force.

Anngelle Wood: 1:04:13

They should want to change the perception of law enforcement in every town, city, state, city, state. Collectively. They should all want to change that perception because we've been struggling with this by ourselves Boston and the Commonwealth but looking at Boston, all of the ridiculousness with the crooked cops in Boston and the FBI letting Whitey Bulger murder people at will I mean we have a bad, bad history.

Susanne Cleveland: 1:05:00

We do have a bad, bad history with which there's no real effort to find justice for a woman victim. It seems like a really high bar to get from that to where you're referring to. It got really, really bad, and it's not that I wasn't paying attention when it was.

Susanne Cleveland: 1:05:18

you know, drugs and racketeering and all that of course, but the image of poor Sandra and the promise of her young life being taken and how they handled it, that's not going to go away anytime soon for me. But the only thing that can be done is to push back on it and say you know what? We're not accepting this, we're not going to deal with this shit anymore. You all need to change this and it is working. I don't know if that's the right word for it. There's starting to be a chain of events that they can't look away from us and they can't look away from the picture of Sandra that we're holding up as they go to their events. You know another fundraiser to celebrate the career of the DA who has allowed this to happen under his watch the career of the DA who has allowed this to happen under his watch.

Anngelle Wood: 1:06:13

It's that kind of predatory behavior of the throwaways which I don't look at anybody as a throwaway, but it's that predatory behavior that has been a part of the grooming that we know about the criminal mindset where they go after these people that they feel like nobody cares about. If I kill a sex worker, no one's going to care, which is untrue.

Susanne Cleveland: 1:06:32

They're also going for somebody who is caring and vulnerable, just in a way of admiration, and maybe looking for a breach in the system, a death or a tragedy that makes somebody actually entrust in their care To deal with the shock factor and the nitty gritty of those insidious details. It's more to understand, pay attention to that stark contrast between the outward facing person for whom it's really really important to be alone with your children, one and two. Anything in the behavior that might be shifting that seems like it can't be explained.

Anngelle Wood: 1:07:13

I'm sure this is a resounding thing among all of the folks and the support and the advocates that are part of Justice, for Sandra. Birchmore is no more. Birchmore is no more, not one more, and you cannot look away from what we know happened to this young woman and by whom. This is a great deal of emotional labor for you. I hope that you find comfort and camaraderie among the supporters that you have been working with so very closely throughout these. This case has gone on for a number of years and I know that you've developed some really strong relationships and bonds with these people. I want all of you to know how important that this really is, that advocacy, work like this work that you are doing and the advocacy that I'm learning. They say that why do you do it? It's compassion and empathy, but it's rewarding to make a difference, even if it is just a small one, and it's being the voice for somebody who no longer has a voice.

Susanne Cleveland: 1:08:19

Through service, there is healing. That's the nature of the biz, so to speak, the biz that doesn't in any way pay, but pays in knowing that maybe somebody is feeling a little bit comforted and maybe a little bit safer because you're saying, hey, we're not going to let this go, we're going to help you.

Anngelle Wood: 1:08:48

And that there's an interest. And there are a lot of crimes, unfortunately, but I want to make sure that I am on the good side of this, that I am one of those people. That is part of delivering that message that there is good that can come out of something so terrible. And, yes, there will be the people who want the dirt and the nitty gritty and break down every single thing that happened and play by plays and all of those things, and unfortunately, that's never going to go away. As long as this is a viable medium for people to decipher all of this and take it, I truly believe we can use the powers of true crime for good, and you're a wonderful example of that. And you're a wonderful example of that.

Susanne Cleveland: 1:09:24

Well, thank you for saying that. I'm humbled. I'm humbled by that. But you know, empathic true crime is distinct from the greater, I guess, the world of true crime. Empathic true crime is its kind of own entity, I feel, and it is a labor of love, a weird labor of love. But here we are, you know.

Anngelle Wood: 1:09:47

You really have truly been extraordinary, and I know that people recognize that, and I just want to thank you for spending so much time with me. We can't just be apathetic human beings that just go day to day and not care about anything. That's not the way we should be.

Susanne Cleveland: 1:10:05

That's not the way we should be. That's not humanity, no, and we can make it a little softer, like less agonizing for somebody who is trying to understand this case. That's what makes the conversations last longer is trying to find a delivery that someone can live with in a situation that is unlivable, towards the common goal of healing and prevention and awareness and in honoring Sandra Birchmore's life.

Anngelle Wood: 1:10:39

Thank you so much, suzanne Clevelands of Justice for Sandra Birchmore. There is a website. There is a Facebook group Justice for Sandra Birchmore. There is a website. There is a Facebook group Justice for Sandra Birchmore. I posted all the links in the show notes at Crime of the Chewest Kind on the episode page. That also includes resources to help and support for you or anyone you know that might be experiencing abuse of any kind and those very long investigative reports like the internal investigation 60 pages and the 45-page indictment of Matthew Farwell all there. This story will continue for quite some time. Matthew Farwell will face a judge and jury. My guess is sometime in 2025. It remains to be seen what happens with these other players. They have been publicly named as participants, at the very least, in the abuse of Sandra Birchmore. Thank you for listening.

Anngelle Wood: 1:12:00

My name is Anngelle Wood. This is Crime of the Truest Kind, Massachusetts and New England crime stories. A little bit of history, minimal snark, sometimes some swear words. If you have a case you want to tell me about, email at crimeofthetruestkind at gmailcom. I have a number of interviews that I have done. For future episodes I am scheduling additional episodes If there's something you want me to know about or someone you think that I should speak to. Please reach out.

Anngelle Wood: 1:12:35

Next live show Thursday, October 10th, north Shore Crime Cases by request at Off Cabot in Beverly, Massachusetts. Tickets are on sale. Linked at crimeofthetruestkindcom. Also linked on all my social pages and my link tree. There's a lot of linkage that goes on with operating a podcast. I'll tell you that You've asked me about doing crime trivia. I will work that into the show on the 10th in a respectful way it's possible, and we will do a Q&A because there are other cases that you want to talk about and I will oblige. Otis says hi. All the doggy kids say hello. I must be going. Lock your goddamn doors. We'll be you next time.