Bonus! The Retrial of Lizzie Borden, Fall River, Massachusetts with The Red Rabbit Hole Podcast

Bonus episode! A transcontinental true crime collaboration. And it's a real whodunit. Centuries later, the most notorious murder case in Massachusetts history is explored with our friends across the pond, Nicky and Lisa, hosts of The Red Rabbit Hole podcast. 

In part one of two, we unravel the infamous case of the Borden murders in Fall River, Massachusetts and the main - and only - suspect, the daughter, 32-year-old Lizzie Borden. She was called many things, spinster, old maid, “bachelor girl” and "DTF" were decades away from the parlance of the day. The colloquial speech was slow to change.  

Hosts Lisa and Nicky step into the shoes of the prosecution and defense as we reconstruct the courtroom drama surrounding the shocking 1892 murders of Lizzie’s father, Andrew, and stepmother, Abby. As your guide and judge in this role play, we look at the evidence, possible motives, and the frenzied attention that made this case an enduring piece of Americana. 

Our conversation takes unexpected turns, even drawing parallels to the modern-day Karen Reed trial in Massachusetts, a spirited debate, where British TV series recommendations morph into a lively discussion about historical and contemporary crime cases. 

The intriguing cases of Lizzie Borden and Karen Reed reveal the powerful sway of societal perceptions and the media's narrative in shaping the public's viewpoint on guilt and innocence. And amidst our intense discussions, we even manage to sprinkle in some humor with tales of baking scones.

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About The Borden Case:
Britanica - Lizzie Borden Took An Ax...
And gave her mother forty whacks, And when she saw what she had done, She gave her father forty-one. It's fiction.  Her stepmother, Abby, was hit 18 times, and Andrew was hit 11. But that doesn't rhyme.

Smithsonian Magazine - How Lizzie Borden Got Away With Murder

Library of Congress

Chapters

• 0:00 Transcontinental True Crime Collaboration
• 9:11 TV Shows and Legal Debates
• 20:56 Unsolved Case and Legal Debates
• 29:30 Media Deception and Law Enforcement Response

Transcript

Anngelle Wood: 0:00

Well, hello, my name is Anngelle Wood. This is Crime of the Cheest Kind Today, a very special bonus episode of the show I have teamed with the fine folks at the Red Rabbit Hole podcast and hosts Lisa and Nikki. It is a transcontinental collaboration, as I've called it, and I know that sounds very exciting, and well it is. Lisa and Nickyki act as the prosecution and the defense against the notorious accused yet acquitted murderer, lizzie Borden, from my fair home state of Massachusetts, and I was given the role of the judge. For a bit of background, llizzie Borden's father, Aandrew Borden, and her stepmother, abby Borden, were found murdered in their Fall River home on August 4th 1892. The murders were particularly brutal.

Anngelle Wood: 1:00

It is one of Massachusetts and New England's most notorious crime cases that technically remains unsolved. Take a trip with me, with us, down the lovely listeners.

Nicky Peacock: 1:37

You are back again down the red rabbit hole and guess what? We've got a guest with us. Yes, lisa and I have once again dragged someone else down the red rabbit hole, but before we introduce her, lisa, are you there?

Lisa Shepard: 1:55

I'm here, yes, I never left. I well, I well, I've spent a week digging, really spent a week digging this tunnel under the, under the pacific ocean.

Nicky Peacock: 2:05

Uh, oh no no, oh my god, where have you gone?

Lisa Shepard: 2:10

well, I went the wrong way. Then I had to go under the atlantic.

Nicky Peacock: 2:12

Oh, okay, well, that's quite apt, really, isn't it? Because our guest is from across the atlantic. At least, I hope so. My geography is not that bad.

Lisa Shepard: 2:22

Yeah, no, that was mine that was my really poor geography at the beginning. There, yes, I've been digging a tunnel under the Atlantic Ocean all the way across.

Nicky Peacock: 2:30

And it is a bit of a weird warren this time because we're going to be talking about a particular case. So our special guest with us today, helping us with this case, is Angel Wood, who is the host of the true crime podcast in the States called Crime of the Truest Kind. Angele, are you here with us?

Anngelle Wood: 2:48

Hello, I feel so close to you, although I'm so far across the sea.

Nicky Peacock: 2:53

This is dug up into your backyard. I hope you don't mind.

Anngelle Wood: 2:57

I hope you don't mind a lot of dog. I have a lot of dog pies back there, pg way to say it. Oh, oh, it's a mess back there, I just went directly in.

Lisa Shepard: 3:11

I was all in for the, for the love of art.

Nicky Peacock: 3:13

I had to do it so, ngel, tell us a little bit about yourself. When did you start the podcast? What's your interests?

Anngelle Wood: 3:22

my interest. Well, I have done um, I've done professional. I've been a professional radio host presenter for a number of years here in the Boston and New England area and that's been really fun. So with that came all these other skills researching, writing, audio production et cetera. So it wasn't too difficult of a switch for me to make. So back in that window of time where remember that time where people were making sourdough bread and staying home a lot and watching a lot of Netflix I started a podcast, which I had always I've always listened to podcasts, always wanted to do a podcast, and I was inspired by a book that I read and I just did it. So, technically four years, but actively for three years I've been doing the podcast okay, and what's your favorite Boston crime then?

Anngelle Wood: 4:15

oh gosh, um. My favorite, probably the one of the most notorious, that people really enjoy talking about and taking sides, is the notorious mob boss named Whitey Bulger. A lot of movies have been based on his story, and certainly you saw Black Mass with Johnny Depp. Maybe he is notorious as some people consider him a folk hero, sort of like the Robin Hood who stole from the rich. You know, and you know put drugs on the streets of South Boston. The rest of us know that he is responsible for a lot of carnage and a lot of pain. So you know, it depends on who you talk to. If you talk to some crusty old South Boston person, they might tell you that he was the best thing ever.

Nicky Peacock: 5:06

Few other people will tell you that, though yeah, it's one of those things that tends to divide, doesn't it? In terms of like folk, heroes and, um, not to be kind of sexist, but it can divide through the genders as well. Men tend to see these kind of guys. I suppose. Who's the guy that was um the cocaine?

Lisa Shepard: 5:24

no, the guy who was cocaine Escobar.

Nicky Peacock: 5:31

Everybody we went to high school with Escobar, oh, Pablo.

Nicky Peacock: 5:34

I remembered Pablo, yeah, because some people kind of saw him as a bit of a folk hero, but clearly you know he was not a great guy most of the time, and I'm not sure the kind of you know he was, you know he was not a great guy most of the time, and I'm not sure the kind of you know, the kind of balancing out there that you do one good thing and then you can commit a ton of crime and ruin people's lives on the other hand, can settle that out.

Anngelle Wood: 5:55

I mean, and that's how they looked at him. You know even how the movies portrayed him when the film came out. Oh, you know, his name was James, you know, oh, oh, you know his name was James, you know. Oh, james, you're out, meaning out of prison. Oh, james, you're out. And you know he goes and pats the nice old lady on the shoulder and carries her groceries, and so, of course, the neighborhood thinks he's the best thing ever. Meanwhile, he's like pulling people's teeth out with pliers and burying them on the beach.

Nicky Peacock: 6:20

You know it's all who you ask. Yeah, and sociopaths and psychopaths can both help little old ladies across the road. It's just the differences. When you know nobody's looking, they push them back into traffic.

Lisa Shepard: 6:30

I've just looked him up and I'm just looking at the picture. He looks like a really typical Essex granddad. I don't know, that's a very very English reference, but he does look particularly like somebody's granddad maybe in like Tilbury in Essex.

Anngelle Wood: 6:50

My great granddad is from the UK. Yeah, what part. I always heard Bradford. Oh yeah, Bradford, Yorkshire.

Nicky Peacock: 6:58

Yeah, yeah, I don't think we know any in town?

Anngelle Wood: 7:04

No, I didn't either.

Nicky Peacock: 7:05

That makes three of us, although if you'd have said Northamptonshire, I'd have been like what's his name? Where did he go to school? It would have started the conversation. But no, I don't know anyone in Bradford.

Anngelle Wood: 7:14

Yeah, I always try to try. I don't know what his accent sounds like. Is yours similar?

Nicky Peacock: 7:20

Not at all Bradford's quite northern, it's northern. So I think we're more kind of Midlands, maybe more towards the I suppose the London accent that's perhaps on the TV a little bit more yeah.

Anngelle Wood: 7:34

I watch a lot of British TV lately. So, yes, yes, I'm matching you up with some of the folks I see on the telly. British TV is better than than US TV. Maybe I've seen all of the US TV and I need to move to a new country. That's probably why maybe.

Nicky Peacock: 7:51

I mean, what was your favorite British? We've gone way off subject, but what's your favorite British?

Anngelle Wood: 7:54

TV program. This is a different rabbit hole, ladies. Um, I watched, I I discovered Call the Midwife just this year and I watched all 13 seasons over the course of about three months.

Nicky Peacock: 8:09

I love it. Have you watched the new? All Creatures, great and Small? No, you'd love that and I want to. If you love, call the Midwife. It's set around the same time period and it's got that gentle kind of what would you call it, lisa? A gentle kind of drama.

Lisa Shepard: 8:25

Yeah, call it lisa a gentle kind of um drama.

Nicky Peacock: 8:26

Yeah, it's not too heavy everybody is so kind and call the midwife it's like I wish that the 50s and 60s were truly this kind and magical, I think you'd like all Creatures, great and Small, because obviously it's about vets, so it's got a lot of animals in it, so it's quite nice like that absolute marker of the nicest people in Britain. It's all the vets it's all the vets, I think. Isn't it set up north? I'm sure it's set up north, I don't know.

Lisa Shepard: 9:00

I don't think I remember the original.

Nicky Peacock: 9:01

I'm sure it is Let alone no. Oh, do you not no, because it's about a Scottish vet that goes to work for them. I'm sure it is.

Lisa Shepard: 9:11

Of all the series you can recommend, there's Downton Abbey, oh yeah, there's Downton, yeah, but everyone's seen Downton Abbey.

Nicky Peacock: 9:19

That's nothing and that is I haven't.

Anngelle Wood: 9:22

I've only seen a few episodes. I have a lot of catching up to do. A show that I just finished on Hulu. It's another British. They're set in Camden. It's called Trying, I don't know if you've heard of it. Yeah, I've heard of that With. I think the lead is Esther Smith.

Lisa Shepard: 9:36

maybe is her name, but she has a similar accent to yours. I don no idea.

Anngelle Wood: 9:43

It has nothing to do with crime, but it is you know it's heartwarming.

Nicky Peacock: 9:47

I think we might have discovered that Lisa's got a different identity. She is acting and trying.

Lisa Shepard: 9:52

I love that. That would be great. Oh, I'm looking her up now. I'm going to see where Nikki Smith, where Esther Smith's from oh Stourbridge no, that's miles away.

Nicky Peacock: 10:06

Oh, I know, perhaps she puts the actors there, isn't it? They can change their acts well anyway, we could sit here for hours talking about tv, and I would, quite frankly. But we have. We are here with a very serious debate, aren't we, lisa, that we think Angel can help us with. I might have missed the memo. You didn't miss the memo, you replied to said memo.

Anngelle Wood: 10:35

You didn't study for this test, did you and I?

Lisa Shepard: 10:37

lost. Last time we had a competition as well, angel, so I'm yeah. She made me change the numbers on my top Trump's card until she won. Yeah, yeah.

Nicky Peacock: 10:50

Oh, oh. The fix is always my fault. I'm so glad you're here. Am I a tiebreaker? Well, in this case you're going to be the judge. So what we're going to do is we are going to not reenact, but we are going to put forward the trial of one of the most famous new england cases, lizzie borden. And then joe, you are I mean, I'm sure you've got you know your own idea as to what happened with the lizzie borden case. But we invite you to put your anything you know to the side and to listen to our cases of our inferior researching skills and podcasting skills.

Anngelle Wood: 11:30

There have been a lot of intensive debates here in Massachusetts about a current case I'm sure you've probably heard of in international news the story of and this is another rabbit hole, because I too am very familiar with the rabbit hole. There's a case about this woman named Karen Reed who was just on trial. She was just it was a hung jury. There was a mistrial in the case. So the state of Massachusetts says they're going to retry her. But it is a very talk about a very divisive subject here. It is it's bananas how people talk to one another when they're talking about this case. It has touched like a nerve in basically everyone who knows anything about it.

Nicky Peacock: 12:20

So it's like the modern Lizzie Borden.

Anngelle Wood: 12:37

So it's like the modern Lizzie Borden. In a blizzard in New England in January, where the high temps are about I don't know 25 degrees, that's when it's warm. He was found in the snow, subsequently passed away. A few hours later she was charged. The claim is the prosecution claims that she backed into him, left him to die in the snow. The defense says she was framed by a whole, by the people who lived in the house where he was found outside and all of their friends and acquaintances in pretty much the whole town. Interesting point, everybody that of people who lived in that house where he was found outside were also police officers.

Anngelle Wood: 13:37

After you know, a two-month trial, six eight-week trial, however long, it was still pretty inconclusive to a lot of people just in terms of did she do it? Or was he supposedly beaten and thrown out in the snow? And oh it's, I will stop there. But rabbit hole, oh, holy hell. Oh, holy hell. Yes, did she know him? They were dating. They were dating. They had been a couple for a period of years and they could have been fighting. The prosecution tried to bring out all of these text messages and voicemail messages that she had left for him that paint her as a horrible person, but I don't know that the prosecution proved without a doubt that she ran him over. Lord knows, I don't know that we'll ever know. I don't know if we'll truly ever know, because of the divisive nature of it. I mean, people have free Karen Reid signs in their front lawn like they're selling their house.

Nicky Peacock: 14:49

That's kind of similar to the Lizzie Borden thing, because a lot of the people said that the motive was her hating her stepmother. But there's no actual real evidence. You know, and even if there was real evidence, just because someone hates you doesn't mean they're going to kill you. I don't like a lot of people, I'm not going to go around killing them, Lucky for me.

Anngelle Wood: 15:12

You're right. You're right the way that people were divided about. You know the crime and who was responsible and you know Lizzie borden had a lot of support.

Lisa Shepard: 15:23

I was surprised to find out and I suppose it was a lot about her portrayal, wasn't it in in the media and she was portrayed as this small, uh, upper class woman who could not possibly have done such a brutal thing. Um, and I was just, I was just very quickly looking up the case Reid case and there's a little bit talking about her, the adversity that she has battled and her illness and a lot about her kind of education and stuff, and I think well, that's a definite sort of angle in the news portrayal around this person which is very similar to the Lizzie Borden case.

Nicky Peacock: 16:00

But like does it really? Oh well, I'm showing my hands now as the defence. But does it really matter? You know I can pick you out killers. You know people that have been, you know, put away for killing, people that have all sorts of backgrounds and have all sorts of things. To me it's like, well, that's not proof of really anything.

Lisa Shepard: 16:20

But it's how the news media influence, isn't it? You know the information that they choose to print about?

Anngelle Wood: 16:27

people Right. People are tried in the media. We know that.

Nicky Peacock: 16:30

They are, and it's more prevalent today, obviously. Well, I say it's more prevalent than in the Lizzie Borden time, but then again the reporters went nuts over Lizzie Borden. You know, it was always in the papers there was. It was filled. The courtroom was filled with reporters and people that the looky-loos that want you know, because they didn't have TV back then. There was no Netflix, so no one had you know. Call the midwife to sit and binge.

Anngelle Wood: 16:53

I feel so badly for them. It's such a good show.

Nicky Peacock: 16:56

Isn't it? Yeah, there's no, this is their entertainment. So so, and I know that a lot of the evidence in the lizzie borden trial was completely trampled you know, what primitive forensics that they had to begin with, but then anything that they had was completely trampled on by reporters wanting to get in the house. So, lisa, should we put our wigs on? Indeed, like true barristers of the uk?

Lisa Shepard: 17:18

I'm very ready and I'm going to put on my barrister voice, I think I believe it's the prosecution.

Nicky Peacock: 17:26

You do go first, so would you like? Oh no?

Lisa Shepard: 17:28

opening statement oh, I haven't prepared an opening statement. Right, you share yours, and then I will but you'll, you'll copy me, yeah that's the idea. Don't put your hand over the paper or anything, so I can't see it. Let me copy you. All right, I'll let you copy me and then we'll be friends and we can hang out at break time, okay.

Nicky Peacock: 17:51

Okay, okay, I will give in to peer pressure, okay. So, judge Wood, I put to you that there is no evidence here that Lizzie Borden committed any crime at all, and that's going to be evident throughout this trial that Lizzie Borden was just the first person that the police latched on to and they saw nobody else but her.

Anngelle Wood: 18:12

I'm nodding, as the judge would do.

Nicky Peacock: 18:14

Good, good, I see the judge is in the palm of my hand. Now, lisa, you've got to wrench her back out.

Lisa Shepard: 18:23

I'm going to be called in contempt at some point, I'm sure, Judge Wood. Though there may not be any physical evidence, the circumstantial evidence is strong. Not only did Lizzie Borden have a motive to complete this heinous crime, she also has no alibi for her whereabouts at the time of the death of her father and her stepmother.

Nicky Peacock: 18:47

I would put it to you, Jeff Wood, to rebuttal there's lots of people that have no alibi at the time of the murders, and that there was another person within the house, Bridget the maid, who never once swayed on where Lizzie was at the time of the murders, and that circumstantial evidence is indeed. As my learned colleague puts it.

Lisa Shepard: 19:16

I can't even say that with a straight face. It's because you're calling me learned.

Nicky Peacock: 19:20

Learned. Yeah, I kind of want you to call me learned learned. Yeah, you're my learned colleague, you just call me Leonard, then Leonard all right, but, yes, even my learned colleague has said that her evidence is circumstantial, which to me is not enough to make someone guilty of murder, and I'm assuming the death penalty at the time but who else could it have been the motive?

Lisa Shepard: 19:43

that's not why we're here.

Nicky Peacock: 19:45

She had a. We're not here, we're not here to give stories. You need to prove that she is guilty, not that someone else couldn't have done it, and I'm not here to prove someone else did it. I'm just here to prove that my client is innocent of all charges. And now I'm sitting back in my chair and adjusting my wig ever so slightly.

Lisa Shepard: 20:06

Well, I would say it was known that Lizzie was going to make some money over the death of her father. She didn't like her stepmother very much and Lizzie was outraged. Outraged when her father transferred a fool's river of property to her stepmother's family to her sister instead of to her, and this gives her a very strong motive, beside the point that she also lost her beloved pigeons. Have you, my learned colleague or whatever, ever loved a pigeon? Lizzie really loved these pigeons and he took a hatchet to them and he took their heads off and then said you can't have a pigeon. Lizzie really loved these pigeons and he took a hatchet to them and he took their heads off and then said you can't have a house. And Lizzie knew well, if I get rid of you, then I'll also get a load of money and probably all those houses back and the pigeons will live in peace.

Nicky Peacock: 20:56

So, judge Wood, what are your initial thoughts? I?

Lisa Shepard: 20:57

want to hear more about the pigeons.

Anngelle Wood: 21:00

There were pet pigeons in the Borden household.

Lisa Shepard: 21:03

So I'm not sure if she actually had a full-on like what was a coop a pigeon coop for them, but she had been feeding them, she had been encouraging them to come and they were her friends. She had named them um, bob, frank, izzy and umulia. She loved them very much and then her father took an axe to them. He said that they were pests, but I don't believe that is the case, that he just did it.

Anngelle Wood: 21:29

Did he give them 40 waxes? The question no 41. So she was nurturing a family of pigeons and you say, maybe that is part of what triggered her to allegedly and I'm the judge, I have to be very careful what I say allegedly murdered her father and her stepmother yeah yeah, there was money.

Lisa Shepard: 21:57

And you say money. So the Andrew Borden's estate was worth $423,650,000, which is the equivalent to about $59.3 million today. So she was going to. That is quite a significant financial motive. So there was financial motive, but there was also the emotional motive, because Andrew killed her pigeons. Don't forget them. Come on everybody. I don't think it's hard, but yeah.

Nicky Peacock: 22:32

So the very fact that her father killed the pigeons could indicate that she would be perhaps scared of him, do you not think? I mean, if someone killed something that I loved in front of me, I perhaps my first instinct wouldn't be for vengeance but would be to cower in the corner like a normal woman of the time perhaps would. And I would put forward that, yes, he was a very rich man, but he was also well known to be a miser as well and had upset quite a number of people by dealing with bankruptcies in the town, and it could have enraged many people, putting forward again my learning college theory that somebody else did it then. Yes, okay, I will agree with that, someone could have done it, someone else other than Lizzie.

Anngelle Wood: 23:17

Who have you presented as the alternate killer?

Nicky Peacock: 23:21

I'm not here to present another killer because I'm just here for her innocence personally. But, as you've asked, judge Wood and I will do whatever the judge says If it's not her, then who? Again, it could be Bridget. They said that if a woman can wield the axe, why not Bridget? She was there. I would put forward that the lack of evidence, as I said in my opening statement, does go against Lizzie actually committing these murders. I think we can all agree that the murders were pretty brutal. There was 19 hits on the stepmother and 17, I believe, on the father while he slept, and that would have been a lot of blood. I mean, watching one episode of Dexter would indicate that you're going to get pretty bloody, even if you got lucky on one murder and didn't get a spot on you. I just baked some scones and I had everything where I needed it, yet still I was covered in scone mix, so I can't imagine hitting someone's head with an axe that many times.

Lisa Shepard: 24:22

Yeah, the scones were truly dead and I did bake them and, depending on how hard that scone or scone turned out to be, you could have used that as a murder weapon.

Nicky Peacock: 24:32

I made chocolate chip scones and they were perfect. They were perfect.

Lisa Shepard: 24:36

Oh yeah, I want scones next we had them with lemon curd. Anyway, I'll bring some along the tunnel. I'll run some along the tunnel.

Nicky Peacock: 24:44

I'll run some along. Okay, well, we'll run some along. Well, we've got to keep Angela overnight, so We've been here for a week haven't we Always Well.

Lisa Shepard: 24:51

I would like to come back and present Judge some evidence of the well, actually some missing evidence of the blue dress which, a week after the murders, lizzie burnt because she said she had paint on it. Yeah, I knew you'd go there yeah.

Nicky Peacock: 25:09

I knew you'd go there.

Lisa Shepard: 25:11

And of course there was some blood found in a bucket downstairs in the cellar of the house on some rags I think that we use for cleaning. So there was some blood that Lizzie Borden cleaned up and burnt.

Nicky Peacock: 25:24

Judge Wood, what do you think of the blood evidence?

Anngelle Wood: 25:28

Given the injuries sustained by these two people, the two Borden adults, it would seem that there should have been more blood present. I mean they were hit with a hatchet more than more than well. We're talking about collectively at least 40 or more hits. I've watched some csi. I know that makes a big mess.

Nicky Peacock: 25:55

Dexter had his own room I think I need to hear more well, I mean, I have the case. I have a massive butt and I am going to tell it to you, but I am going to tell you it on the next episode. Oh yes I'm going to leave you the whole week, listeners to wonder what I'm going to put forward to my learned colleague and, of course, the very lovely and just Judge Wood.

Lisa Shepard: 26:33

You're also going to come back with an apple, aren't you, next week, and put it up on the desk. Yeah, this is for you, judge Wood. This is for you. Enjoy, have a scone. Yes, have a scone, enjoy. Whereas I might come with some true facts, let's see. Let's see what happens. I might come more prepared. I might not. Let's see.

Nicky Peacock: 26:55

I don't think real Lisa's going to hack it. Get it, hack it. Oh oh, come on, just like Lizzie did.

Anngelle Wood: 27:05

Allegedly.

Nicky Peacock: 27:06

Well, no, there's more to the story, but I do think I mean we did make the point earlier that the media were very much in play. They're in play in this trial that's happening at the moment with you guys, the the reed trial, but they're, they were definitely in play in the lizzie borden one and we can't, you know, looking back in terms of you know, at the time obviously they didn't realize what was going on. But I think, looking, we can include that kind of evidence in this one, because this is a more modern trial.

Lisa Shepard: 27:34

Oh, whatever, I need to engage the pod.

Nicky Peacock: 27:40

I still won't let the cameras in. You're very just. I know that Lisa seems bored. I'd like you to move that down. Whatever I believe crossed her lips, which doesn't seem very respectful for your position. To be honest, that's destroyed.

Lisa Shepard: 27:58

Just because you know your case is in down the toilet. There's no defence in this case.

Nicky Peacock: 28:03

She did it, and we know she did it. My case is not down the toilet and also I add that she was acquitted at the time. So I'm not working against the system here, I'm working with it. No, you're working against me.

Lisa Shepard: 28:18

You set me up for this, set me up for another loss.

Nicky Peacock: 28:22

You had the choice. You could have said to me oh no, I want to prove she's innocent. You could have said that you didn't't.

Lisa Shepard: 28:28

I didn't no, I didn't well only because I thought the evidence was pretty overwhelming, really, so you, fell for it.

Nicky Peacock: 28:35

You listened to the media that's what you did. I did. I did so, listeners, we are going to sign off. So thank you, angela, or Judge Wood as she will now be known forevermore for joining us on this episode. And you're going to stick around, aren't you to record the second part so you can judge us fairly on our evidence?

Lisa Shepard: 28:57

I sure will Make yourself comfortable. We're going to get some scones.

Nicky Peacock: 29:01

Yeah, we're going to put on the telly for you. We're going to binge the series.

Lisa Shepard: 29:06

I think we ought to go sort of you know, late 80s, early 90s. I think that's the time, you know, tv, british TV, late 80s, early 90s A bit of like Good Night Sweetheart.

Nicky Peacock: 29:19

Good Night, sweetheart. Oh, that would be good, absolutely fabulous, yes, that was good, that was good fun. Yeah, that was great time We'll all get drunk.

Lisa Shepard: 29:30

What was, um, what was the one about the police in the like? That would have been a real favorite. No, or the bill's good, I think you'd like the bill, but what was the one, um, oh, that had nick. What's his face in it? Oh, my memory's doing me great today. Heartbeat, you'd love heartbeat. I think let's put on the heartbeat, heartbeat marathon I think I have to get bread box yeah, you are gonna have to get britBox.

Nicky Peacock: 29:49

Yeah, you are going to have to get BritBox Definitely, and I think Spitting Images is going to be worth a watch. Now We've got a new government, okay, all right. Always worth a chuckle, yes. So, before we go, what would you recommend us watch this week?

Anngelle Wood: 30:03

I'm not sure I recommend it, but you might need to take in the documentary about the Sherry Pepini case. Have you heard about that woman, the woman from Northern California who was called the gone girl in the media.

Nicky Peacock: 30:19

I remember that she made up a whole story, didn't she?

Anngelle Wood: 30:23

She made up the entire story and she did harm to herself. It is. It's a mess. I mean we certainly know all of these years later what truly happened, but to see what she did to herself they show her injuries that's dedication, I guess you know.

Anngelle Wood: 30:45

I suppose, lying aside, I can, can't fathom what place this woman was in when she decided to pull off this bizarre, hugely like this, the drama and the planning that must have gone into this. I just don't understand it. And I haven't seen the end yet, so I don't know exactly what her take is and what she has to say for herself. But whoa.

Nicky Peacock: 31:15

My suspicion is that it just got way out of control. You know, when you I don't doubt it attention to, you know to to make everyone miss her and get in the papers and things like that, and the next thing you know it's like it's lost and it's away from her. And you know, you know what it's like. It's one life after one life to one line.

Anngelle Wood: 31:37

Then you can't keep the life straight and if you're not good at it, then you get found out pretty quick from what I understand, also because of the nature of these things there was a big go fund me campaign and they raised a lot of money for the family, so I I'm gonna guess they probably had to give that back. Well, that I think those were part of what charges came later I don't know.

Nicky Peacock: 31:59

I mean, is that fair? I mean, they didn't know, really did they?

Anngelle Wood: 32:02

the family didn't know. I I believe that the husband didn't know. I I really I really don't think he knew. He seemed pretty sincere in the things that I watched.

Nicky Peacock: 32:11

So for all you know, for all intensive purposes she was gone. So to me I would have been like, well, that's quite just they, they needed that money to try help get her back. They, they did it in good faith and they had two little kids, he couldn't work.

Anngelle Wood: 32:24

I mean, come on, that's a nobody wants to be part of that club?

Nicky Peacock: 32:29

No, and again the media went nuts. Everything got blew out of proportion and next thing you know you're hitting yourself in the face with something.

Anngelle Wood: 32:38

She yeah, she caused a lot of damage for herself, for her family and for the whole community. You know she blamed people. You know she pointed the finger at she. Well, she said they were two hispanic women.

Nicky Peacock: 32:53

So okay, let's be racist on top of everything else yeah, like real stereotypes she was talking about and and she was just making. It was like she was coming up with a film setting, wasn't it? And that she was the star of the film, because she always came out like they were her mates, you know, like she, she talked them around or something, and it was just absolutely ridiculous it was with such.

Anngelle Wood: 33:14

It seemed like she spoke of it initially with such. Uh, maybe conviction is the word I'm thinking of, maybe not, but similarly to how casey anthony just told all of those lies about her missing kid and she made up all of these scenarios in her head. It was not dissimilar. So what is their mental state like? There's, there's like a whole bunch of it's like sort of pig pen in their brain.

Nicky Peacock: 33:38

Um, I don't understand it, but she got away with it for a time, yeah, and then you got the flip side of the um. I don't know whether you've seen the netflix documentary american nightmare, oh yes, where you got someone who is actually abducted and the police assume that it's fake, didn't?

Anngelle Wood: 33:52

believe her and thankfully there was that one officer, that one law enforcement officer that made the connection to a crime that happened in her area and then made the connection to those people in Southern Cal, I think it's Newport Beach area.

Nicky Peacock: 34:09

Yes, she was a hero.

Anngelle Wood: 34:11

One police officer made the connection. If not for her, they would have never connected that and that woman would have been vilified forever.

Nicky Peacock: 34:20

That policewoman deserves well. Hopefully she did get an award, but she definitely deserves one for doing that, not being prejudicial in her thinking you know because you're presented with how you, you know everybody thinks it is and to be able to say, well, actually I'm going to examine this and I'm going to look a little bit deeper and I'm not going to just go with what I'm being told. And that, I would hope, is the main, I suppose, talent of every police officer throughout the world, but obviously it's. It doesn't seem to be.

Anngelle Wood: 34:47

I mean that case, that American nightmare case that you're speaking of. It does seem unbelievable, it does truly seem.

Nicky Peacock: 34:53

You know, they were blindfolded and it was everything that they you know, and it was like that was probably the point, wasn't it? Yeah, oh, yeah, oh. We have a whole other show. We should do another one, right? Well, listeners, we have kept you long enough down this rabbit hole, so we're going to leave you for now, so don't forget to follow the Red Rabbit on all the social medias and, of course, look at our Patreon page. We'll put all the links below, and we'll also put Angel's links as well, so if you want to have a look at her podcast and her details, then do feel free look at her podcast and her details then do feel free. See you next time, guys.

Anngelle Wood: 35:40

Bye thank you for listening. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Nicky. Thank you for your dedication to the craft of retrying a centuries old case Lizzie Borden case part one. There will be two surprise. You can, of course, listen to the Red Rabbit Hole podcast, Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, all your favorite platforms and follow them online,

Anngelle Wood: 36:14

My name is Anngelle Wood. This is Crime of the Truest Kind. Massachusetts and New England crime stories, regional history. Lizzie Borden checks a couple boxes, doesn't it? Otis says hi. Everything about this show, crimeofthechuestkindc. c crimeofthechuestkindcom. Follow the show at Crime of the Truest Kind. Support the show. There's a Patreon. You can drop a tip in the jar to give the dogs a bone. They really really appreciate it. They really really do. Thank you to our Patreon patrons, our honorary executive producer, lisa McColgan. Oh, and thanks to everybody who came out to the live show last week at Off Cabot in Beverly, massachusetts. I will talk more about that more to come. I plan to release it as an episode. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening. I will share part two of my cross-continental collaboration with Nikki and Lisa of the Red Rabbit Hole podcast as soon as I get it. Bye-bye, lock your goddamn doors.